M41
Feminism
March 08 2012
Comments
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RHP User
13 years ago
One you mentioned yourself and that is that a man can walk the streets at night and a woman shouldn't. This is just common sense, not sexism. Another is the difference in prize money paid to male athletes compared to that paid to females. On the face of it, you can say, they work just as hard they deserve equal pay. This is an over simplification as athletes are paid according to what they earn not how hard they work. More people, men and women, would pay to see mens' tennis, for example, rather than womens' matches. The promoters make more money out of the men so they pay more to attract the higher ranking players. This is not the fault of the players or the promoters but rather the public.I think you may find that this is true in many other fields as well. A man and a woman may hold comparable positions but if the man is generating more business for the company then it stands to reason that he would be paid more. We are a progressive society though. We have a female Prime Minister (unfortunate perhaps in this instance) and let's not forget that, as yet, there are not as many women vying for the top jobs as there are men and so (even if sexism were not a factor) the odds are against them. When the day comes when fifty percent of applicants for top jobs are female, we will see more equality in the hiring. It is foolish to pretend that there are no differences between the sexes, and lets face it, aren't we happy there are but I am all in favour of equal rights.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Listen up. Men can't be feminists. That's just ridiculous. You've lost focus on what it is to be male... aka.. NOT female. Jesus. We can agree that women should have equal rights and opportunities, pay and so on and so forth... but women should be women... and men should be men. Just exactly how are you a feminist? Really? I mean, agreeing that women should be paid the same for dong the exactly the same work is not feminist... it's just equitable. Feminism is "all men are arseholes oi oi oi"... they're anti male nazis... and spend a good deal of time seeking to emasculate men...... I'm no feminist and never could be. However, I believe in equity between the genders and between sexual identities. HugsStalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
The most basic dictionary definition of feminism is "The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Which is exactly what you and I are describing, except you don't see that as feminism. The 'feminazi' is an archetype that has kind of captured the public imagination and that's what people think of when they hear 'feminist'. Obviously I'm not that. It interests me though how firmly this is lodged into the zeitgeist, to the point where many women will say "I don't support feminism" or "I could never be a feminist". Which to me is like equating Christian fundamentalism, Westboro Baptist Church-style with all other Christian groups*. *Didn't want to use a religious analogy because I'm not religious, but can't think of a better one right now.
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RogueGeek
13 years ago
And the two responses to the OP demonstrate exactly why feminism exists and is needed.Then think about WHY it is inherently dangerous for a woman to walk alone at night and not a man; or why the public will pay more to see men's sport than women's; or why female law graduate earn on average $10 000 less in their first year out than male law graduates; or why the only reason Australia has a female PM is by default when countries such as Sri Lanka and India had female PMs in the 1960s, Israel and the Central African Republic had female PMs in the 1970s and China and Yugoslavia had female PMs in the 1980s... It is about ATTITUDE and - as the OP pointed out - systemic constraints.I would LOVE to know what you expect from a "woman being a woman"? It might not be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, but it is probably just as stifling and stereotypical...If it helps you all to swallow what I've just said (because we all know how hard it is for men to swallor /sarcasm) I'm not a feminist. I'm a humanist. You can substitute "male" and "female" with "citizen" and "refugee" or any other class of distinctions used by people and I will equally riled up. MS
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RHP User
13 years ago
You are right again Stalky.... (you cocky bastard!). I don't call myself a feminist BUT I'm very feminine ! I don't call myself anything other than EQUAL. I feel we don't need an International Womens Day.... it kind of seems like the message is that we are only strong and independent on ONE DAY OF THE YEAR and that's bullshit ! I am a woman now hear me roar ! (or moan, groan etc...) xxx Saturn
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RHP User
13 years ago
Hi jensman, yeah, I was thinking about sports last night as I wrote it, and how that might be an exceptional one. In that case, there are more 'obvious' reasons why there are differences. I won't go into the 'walking down the street at night' and the 'she was asking for it' stuff about rape culture, because I think that's a bit of a slippery slope and I'm not quite sure where I stand. I will say though that 'common sense' is often an excuse that masks underlying explanations.There are many, many other situations though where it's not equal. Here's a quote from the Wikipedia page on the gender pay gap:Ian Watson of Macquarie University examined the gender pay gap among full-time managers in Australia over the period 2001-2008, and found that between 65 and 90 % of this earnings differential could not be explained by a large range of demographic and labor market variables. In fact, a "major part of the earnings gap is simply due to women managers being female." Watson also notes that despite the "characteristics of male and female managers being remarkably similar, their earnings are very different, suggesting that discrimination plays an important role in this outcome."There may not be as many women vying for top positions, but to me that's evidence that things are not as they should be. It's very glass ceiling stuff. Some women have shattered that ceiling which is great, and maybe they disagree that it still exists, but I can't imagine many of them saying that being a woman in a male-oriented workplace did not in some way make it more difficult to do so.Yes we have a female PM, but it's far from equal there. In the upper house men outnumber women with 47 to 29, and in the lower house it's a ridiculous 113 to 37. You'd think that it would be more balanced, since women do comprise roughly half of our population. Australia lead the world in giving women the vote, but we've got further to go. I just don't buy that politics is inherently a man's game. Women can be just as conniving, self-serving and duplicitous!Finally, the way we as a society respond to female public figures is crazy. You can hate the PM's policies, fair enough, but the level of personal vitriol (or conversely, focus on what she's wearing) overall goes far and beyond, and far more personal, than what the Howard haters got up to. Don't get me wrong, I think she's invited some of it by horrendously trying to market herself as the 'girl next door' (call me Julia, giggle giggle.) Either way I think there's a lot of thinly veiled sexism behind a lot of it. If you're interested too, check out this great article. http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/yumi-stynes-the-circle-abuse-must-stop/ - it talks about some of the incredible double standards applied to, what in essence, was a stupid joke that fell flat.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I think I still have value to add to this debate even if you think I'm not PC. From my perspective Feminism doesn't include men. It is exclusive of men. It has nothing to offer us at all, apart from perhaps happier women. I think the feminist movement is one of the most important social changes that has occurred since slavery was abolished.... but it misses the point... it is not a movement for men. If it is to succeed, it ought to be a movement for change inclusive of men. I get the empowerment debate loud and clear, but having a feminist movement exclusive of men, implies that men have it all good and women want some of that, what men have. It simply misses the point. the point is that social change needs to implement equality and to do that, it needs to be an inclusive movement.... not a movement for women by women.They're my thoughts.HugsStalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
Neptune... Westborough Baptists are Christians none the less... just as the "feminazi" as you so eloquently put it, are undoubtedly feminist. The social problem we are discussing is exclusivity.... If the feminine movement had a broader basic task, say, for example, The anti exclusivity movement" or some such thing, then it would involve men equally.... just saying.. it has a bias and therefore is perpetually doomed in my opinion.HugsStalkyQuoting 'neptune_drift' The most basic dictionary definition of feminism is "The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Which is exactly what you and I are describing, except you don't see that as feminism. The 'feminazi' is an archetype that has kind of captured the public imagination and that's what people think of when they hear 'feminist'. Obviously I'm not that. It interests me though how firmly this is lodged into the zeitgeist, to the point where many women will say "I don't support feminism" or "I could never be a feminist". Which to me is like equating Christian fundamentalism, Westboro Baptist Church-style with all other Christian groups*. *Didn't want to use a religious analogy because I'm not religious, but can't think of a better one right now.
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RHP User
13 years ago
You may be right Stalky and possibly men have come to a point where they want to be included but this was not true of the past. Women had to scream loudly just to be heard. We wanted what men have, not realizing that the grass really isn't that much greener on the other side. So now women do everything! MS I agree with what you say regarding salaries,etc. And yes India, Sri Lanka and Africa, may have had women prime ministers and have done for years. But what have most of those women PM's done for woman's rights? Women in those countries are still often considered second class citizens. It would seem alot of women who want to play with the big boys forget that they are women.... Or maybe they are forced to in order to be taken seriously. Generalizing I know. Meeka
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RHP User
13 years ago
Miss S,feminism IS about equality. Feminist /= (does not equal) feminine. They are very different concepts. Feminism is a social and political movement, in the broadest sense of those terms. What you and Stalky are saying IS the fundamental feminist position. It interests me greatly that there's this massive PR problem with feminism, where people think it means this man-hating, hairy legged, PC, bitchy whinging. First of all I would say they're gross straw man (pardon the pun) generalisations. Second, there is no single feminism, but a lot of different versions (again, the religion analogy comes back into it). There are some pretty far out views, and certainly some strands that would argue that I can't call myself a feminist because I can never know what it's like to be a woman. I disagree with them. What is common amongst all strands of feminism is a belief in that social, political, economic equality, and the need to advance that. That's me. ms_at_69, I'm curious why you would say you're NOT a feminist, as if that somehow is mutually exclusive with being a humanist?Stalky, (with respect) what nonsense! You don't think you can do anything but watch and cheer?! You can't start conversations, lobby, highlight inequality, recognise your own privelege, strive to make things better etc.? To be honest I don't know why you think feminism is exclusive of men. Because of its highly vocal fringes? I do appreciate your contributions, but there's kind of a weird double-logic here. Here I am, a man, in the centre, saying "I am one of the faces of mainstream feminism. This is what feminism looks like!" I am doing exactly what a feminist does, which is starting these conversations, highlighting inequality, advocating for change etc. But you're saying I can't be a feminist because I'm a man, while also saying feminism is no longer relevant because it excludes men. See the bind? Again, in my view feminism has a terrible PR problem, since pretty much everyone agrees with its most fundamental tenets (at least in principle).
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RHP User
13 years ago
That is, a woman capable of bearing children? I mean, employ a 24 year old newly wed in a key management position in your business... sure she can flop it on the table like all the boys and hold her own.... 2 years in she's taking maternity leave.... for 12 months... The business owner has to keep her job open.. that's the right thing to do.. and it's the law... so he employs a temp to fill the position.. only this temp has to be head hunted to replace like with like... and because the position is temporary, the employer has to pay heaps above the market value of his pregnant employee... twelve months later she returns... an excellent manager she is so she gets an annual salary increase equivalent to all the boys... 9 months later... maternity leave for 12 months... same same.... 12 months later she decides to come back part time.... and job share... don't kid yourself that doesn't cost more than a full time salary... Now, add all that shit up... compare the cost of employing a male versus the potential risk of employing a female... and tell me in all earnest, that male and female employees ... well there's no discernible difference. An employer must pay like for like, regardless of gender or leave entitlements.Just saying.... it's very tricky all around.HugsStalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
Lol Neptune. I can see you at there at the next feminist rally... you and a few other misguided men, marching down George St swinging your bras over your heads... you'll be looking like a pimple on a pumpkin... completely out of place... bra-less being the only thing you have in common.... "maybe he's a gender bender" will be the snide little comments from the gaggle of nazi feminists.. Mate, you don't belong there in that crowd of feminists... you know it... and everyone else knows it.HUgsStalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
When I went to work the boss could grope my tits and my crutch and say he will give me more shifts if I suck his cock Today, my girls would put his nuts in a vice and a legal vice as well for that. Equity is the thing not Male bashing, not oh he is a whimp give me a real man any day, check out the men in uniform thing. The rules of engagement in the workforce and in equal rights should be a level playing field On the sexual side and the social side How the heck poor men navigate that is beyond me Dammed if you do Dammed if you don’t Women oh god yep, we got it all, the right to work our arse off all day then come home and do it allllllllll again The right to have babies or not with contraception, but then be told Australia needs you breed, and then to loose our jobs when pregnant or have bosses pissed of at you cause you are away from the workforce To put your kids in bloody day care from six weeks old as you have to help pay the mortgage. Oh yeah and then be a nice woman at work and a slut when you come home, and fuck me silly and get up to the kids all night then go to work and oh yeah fuck me silly again in the morning. Lets not forget we go the right to stand up in a packed train with a bellyful of arms and legs, cause they don’t have to get up and give women a seat any more. definition of Feminism= exhaustion And guys are supposed to be women, but with a nut sack that us feminists can slice of when ever we want.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Now there was a time when they used to say That behind every - "great man." There had to be a - "great woman." But in these times of change you know That it's no longer true. So we're comin' out of the kitchen 'Cause there's somethin' we forgot to say to you (we say) ..... um Sisters are doin' it for themselves. Standin' on their own two feet. And ringin' on their own bells. Sisters are doin' it for themselves. ..... um Now this is a song to celebrate The conscious liberation of the female state! Mothers - daughters and their daughters too. Woman to woman We're singin' with you. The "inferior sex" got a new exterior We got doctors, lawyers, politicians too. Everybody - take a look around. Can you see - can you see - can you see There's a woman right next to you.
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RHP User
13 years ago
From my own personal experience as a woman working in a traditional male role....we think we have cracked the glass ceiling...not ladies we havent...not in real terms...far from it.. I am specialised doctor...(sure there plenty of women docs but not in my field) ...my male counterpart earns 35 grand more than me...to date ...no one has ever been able to tell me why (oh and I have raged about it on principle trust me but to no avail) oh yeah Ive had a a vague excuse because Im a expat and have only worked in Australia for 3 years.....yeah that must be it....forget about my degrees from one of the top American Universities and my work experience guess those 8 years at Med School counted for nothing apparently When I graduated from Med School with honors (btw sacrificing a marriage along the way - but hey that was my choice and of course I was accused of being ruthless and ambitious because I chose a career over lurve !!...) a fellow student (male) asked me who I blew to become a Honors Student ....(true it was a American lad)....recently I published a paper (Im looking at my professorship) and a work collegue (not a direct colleague) upon reading the paper (which he disgreed with topic wise and my conclusions ) asked me which University Professor did I sleep with to get the paper published....!!! (An Australian guy) ...lovely... I could write pages and pages on the sexism and discrimination I have encountered during my professional life......(Im sure Im not the only woman who can) but its been a case of suck it up Princess, in the end, my work results will dictate who and what I am....but my god, I have permanent ulcers on my tongue from all the times Ive gritted my teeth, and Im sure I have a PHD in tongue biting..and yes trust me, Ive worked harder and longer than many of my male colleagues..oh yes I have.....always constantly proving that I am good enough to them (and to myself) , if not at times, better than...always striving....always Iinterestingly enough Ive only evey had problems with guys of my own age....younger male colleagues, no such issue, so perhaps its generational and the new lot of lovely men coming thru will see it all differently in time to come.., but I believe we are still like 20 years away from this...total acceptance of who we are and what we can do..not based on our anatomy parts...
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RHP User
13 years ago
Have you spent much time with actual feminist activists or are you merely politically correct and recognise that equality between sexes is the ethical standpoint. Like the Stalkmiester, I am in favour of equality but that doesn't really equate with real world feminism. Yes, your stated definition as quoted was very compelling but you'll find that the movement is occupied predominantly by the feminazis you spoke of. The women driving the movement would be happier with the Amazonian ideal then they would male/female equity. I once accompanied a friend to an abortion clinic, run by feminists, as her boyfriend wanted nothing to do with it and she didn't want to face her parents. It was taken for granted that I was the father and I was treated with scorn and contempt. These are harsh women. ms_at_69, please don't take my recognising the realities I spoke of for being happy about them. I was pointing out that the inequalities in our society are rooted in society's attitudes, men and women alike. During my first marriage, my wife, who was a bank manager, wanted to maintain her career after child birth. After our first son was born, I quit my job and took on night work so that I could be at home to care for the baby during the day. I am not a feminist. I do believe in equality as being the right thing and I will always support it but I am a realist. I recognise that equality is an ideal that is beyond humanity. Stalky, for fuck sake, please keep religion out of this debate. Let's save that one for it's own thread. PLEASE.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I'm one of those annoying folk who wish it was named something about equality, and the language gender neutral. Anyway, this stuff about women not being safe walking at night might seem right intuitively, the statistics simply do NOT support that, males are MUCH more likely to be victims of assault when out and about. It is when it comes to domestic violence that women are the overwhelming majority of reported victims. Neptune: looking at numbers like you did with politicians is MUCH to simplistic, if you do that then you just find other areas that must be discriminating against men because it isn't a 50/50 split in health services overall e.g. Nursing. There is a difference between genders, and that can play out in the trends of who wants to work in what industry. I'm not saying that there is not discrimination, or an unseen hand forcing men and women into different roles, but not accounting for preferences within groups is guaranteeing a poor understanding of statistics describing that groups behaviour.
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RHP User
13 years ago
But I have some thoughts.I've dated career women most of my life. They are driven and interesting. I love them.Over many a dinner table conversation, I often heard stories that would be described as sexist only because they happened to a woman. Unjust treatment, that if it happened to a man would just be called bullying. Many of the scenarios described I indead had seen happen to men. Bullying.Would I march in a feminst rally holding a placard? You bet!! I'd paint it with my own blood if Bunnings was shut. But I wonder if feminism sometimes hijacks other work place problems to it's own end? Just thinking out loud.Happy (late wishes) Ladies day to all the fairer amongst us.LRE
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RHP User
13 years ago
...between men and women, we are not mortal enemies nor all that different no matter what that sponge-brain John Gray wrote in that book about men from Mars and women from Venus. I like feminine women and have always believed in the saying..."Don't walk in front of me, I will not follow...don't walk behind me, I will not lead". I leave the rest off as if we are side by side or nose to noise....things change, especially once the gloves and clothes come off. I enjoy taking the lead there at times, I like to drive...I also enjoy being a passenger and taking in the scenery now and again. | How about if we celebrate "Humanism"...I can live with that.
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inspirit
13 years ago
I do not support feminism. I do not support ego driven personalities in either sexI do support equality, respect, courage, strength, wisdom, empathy, freedom.......I am proud to be female and International Womans Day is a reminder to me there are millions of other woman out there who have achieved many things in their lives as l have. Some are just very basic though they are still an achievement to that person. On this day my heart goes out to all woman and l celebrate being one.
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inspirit
13 years ago
if only he wrote a synopsis on what he wrote.......hmmmm
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RHP User
13 years ago
I am all for equity between the sexes but loathe with a passion the mercenary way some women pursue the matter. Especially the following two examples that unfortunately I have witnessed far too often:The Reverse Discrimination: Where a woman is placed in a position within an organisation for no other reason than political correctness or to appease some criteria or quota. If someone is qualified for a position, it should not matter whether that person is male or female. Unfortunately I have seen too many women literally thrown up the ladder of success when they are either not qualified or not ready for such a position. Of course I have probably seen the same number of men in that situation but often they can be fired or moved, if a CEO tries that with a woman there is normally a court case!The 'I want equality but still want to be treated different: I was in the military for 30 years and now, there is no difference in pay, in conditions between a male and female ADF member. Yet, as a SNCO I had to treat them totally different. If I had to counsel (read kick in the arse) one of my troops, the rules changed. If the miscreant was male, I could berate, yell, make to stand to attention, all the normal things in the military without any fear of repurcussion. Yet if I had to counsel a female troop, I had to have a female of equal or higher rank to myself as a witness, it had to be behind closed doors, I was not allowed to raise my voice. I still believe in manners (blame my upbringing and career I guess). I will open a door for a woman, I will gladly give up my seat on a train even if I know I will be abused by the woman (has happened too many times for me to count now). This is not putting women up on a pedestal or inferring they are weak and need us men to care for them, it is just, to me anyway, politeness
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RHP User
13 years ago
Of some people on hear to claim that their definition of feminism is the right one. Also extremely narrow minded to lump all feminists in the same category. I love your attitude neptune and also some great comments from ms. As much as we may feel that our lives are not affected by sexism or inequality (mine certainly hasnt) there is no denying it is out there and there that there are very serious issues to be addressed, most particularly on a global scale. Being alive to the issues and conscious of your own thinking (for example ask yourself why you, or society is more interested in male athletes, or what can be done to make streets safer for the vulnerable, or why a woman who presents without make-up is statistically far less likely to get a professional job) is awesome. Talking about the issues is even better. And making change, be it on a small or significant scale, is the ultimate.....and most certainly not the sole preserve of women.
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RogueGeek
13 years ago
I used to describe myself as a Feminist, but I felt it left out too much - because I am equally enraged when men are treated poorly, or refugees, or ethnic minorities, or religeous groups... I don't care who you are or what you believe, if you're a decent person you deserve to be treated decently... Hence I now refer to myself as a Humanist.I read an article (published in a reputable peer-reviewed scholarly journal) that found professions that are male-dominated earn significantly more than professions that are female-dominated. And if a swing should occur - from being predominatly male to female - there is a corresponding swing in the average renumeration. One of the example the article provided was chefs: when it was a female-dominated profession, wages were low. Wages increased as more men entered the profession, and celebrity chefs are overwhelmingly male (and male celebrity chefs earn more than female celebrity chefs). I wish I could find it so I could post the link but I did read it a while ago.Academia is rife with sexism, and as an undergraduate in two male-dominated fields it was very obvious, but also unchallenged. Margaret Wertheim wrote a very interesting book titled, "Pythagoras' Trousers" and in it she discusses the difficulties women face entering academic physics compared to mathematics and other 'hard' sciences. The obsticles are largely cultural...In the end there won't be true gender equality until a guy can decide to be a stay-at-home dad or a woman can decide not to have children and focus on her career, without being criticised (or held up as some 'ultimate role-model').
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RHP User
13 years ago
I haven't made any claims as to the definition of feminism and, while I believe it is driven predominantly by zealots, I made no suggestion that they were all the same. I still maintain that equality is beyond humanity as we are too flawed as a species. I'm not happy about the issue of violence against women, only aware of it. The same goes for the inequalities of spectator sports. Personally, I don't pay much attention to sports unless it is my own children playing. I'm an ethical person. I strive to do the right thing and be fair and open with other people. I lend my voice in support of any cause against injustice, be it equal rights for women, gays, indigenous people, third world nationals, even divorced fathers (let's hear the outcry over that one) etc. etc. I want my own little corner of the world to be as equitable as possible. I don't believe we will ever see it globally.
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RHP User
13 years ago
...and hope one large roll of Bounty is enough to clean up the mess. | Quoting 'kinkisthenewpink' Guys, I know how much women rule RHP land and yes, i know how much you want to get laid but... | That said, young lady...I think you could have been a tad more polite and simpy referred to it as "apple polishing" and that the skin had been rubbed right off? | | Note to self: Pink needs someone to turn her gorgeous backside bright red.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Woman should get paid more- We multi task! (Jokes playfully) Men Women(Alphabetically to be ideologically sound :P)
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RHP User
13 years ago
I note your age neptune drift and celebrate the fact that you started this debate.....would'nt have happened thirty years ago when I was a card carrying member of the Womens Liberation Movement,a man supporting feminist issues....!!!and no I am not a man hating femo nazi ....love men ....well at least most... and today whether you are male or female, issues of inequality and predjuidice still abound. ,.But gosh we had fun in the 70s....raising our conciousness,all female orgies ,and plastering stickers on Sportsgirls shop windows.....because the display had womens heads in rubbish bins....oh thats right, feminists were also supposed to be humourless.......thankyou neptune drift and it's true, its not biology its attitude, and attitudes can change.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Yep, nobody is saying that all feminists are man hating feminazis... But they are all feminists. I mean, you make your bed and lay in it. Just as not all nazis were bad people, all nazis are still nazis. It's an exclusive gig and in my opinion doomed from the get go. I however love Ms_at_69's approach which is to admit that she is not a feminist, rather, that she is humanist. This is a movement that we can all take to heart, inclusive of gender differences, whatever they are. We are saying the same thing in essence, from different gender perspectives. Hugs Stalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
...talk, a bright rosy pink on that gorgeous backside of yours might be fine and agree you were not all that much out of line with the BS radar. I've got a brand new Electrolux that can't even come close to sucking up...you can take it from here, Pink. | Quoting 'kinkisthenewpink'I have yet to think of something naughty enough to be worthy of bright red ... | You can choose from list of top 20 favourites...I'll take it from there. | | Ropes...forget that silly tape stuff that leaves a sticky mess.
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Ice_Fire
13 years ago
Granted there have been some great advancements as a result of our women predecessors but there have also been some changes for the not so good. Gone are the days of the good old wolf whistle as a hot lady walks by a bunch of workmen (they are afraid of retribution), so rare is it to find a man to open a door for a lady (even if she is laden like a pack horse with kids in tow), the poor buggers are too scared we will rip their heads off (and yes i have witnessed this myself).While there is still a gap in the pay between men and women in many industries we are closing the gap but the thing to remeber is that we are now a society that requires TWO working partners to make ends meet, prior to the women's movement when Women stayed at home with the kids life seemed simpler, i know there are still families like that today and that works for them but it is so much harder than it used to be, while it is great to have the choice, sometimes i think that we don't really have a choice at all and like it or not women really do have to go to work.Stalky made a very valid point about women of child bearing age and the cost to business however now we have "parental leave" which means that men are ow entitled to similar conditions so how long will it be before we are sorry about that one?? small business will ultimately pay the price.The word "feminism" in itself seems to be rather offensive to some and i think that maybe it has strayed a little over the years from the original goal but at the end of the day respect for BOTH genders is the key, learning to love eachother's differences and get along together, no man bashing or woman whinging.Mrs
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RHP User
13 years ago
At a cafe the other day with my walking buddy, I helped a lady with a pram get it up the threshold. She obviously wanted to make a fuss about getting through the door... (indeed modern development consent conditions would have required the business owner to install an access ramp)... and she seemed a fair bit put out that I so quickly came to her assistance... 30 seconds later she marches out the door leaving her husband bewildered, to push the pram and chase her down the street... she yelling at him for not helping out with the pram... Now, while this was all going down I thought of this thread. That poor bastard needs to employ a nanny. :) Hugs Stalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
If you want a prime example of the difference in attitudes to women you can't get a better than to try being a female in motorsports. With the advent of power steering there is now no reason why women cannot compete with men on a physically equal footing.Despite the fact that I have a good basic knowledge of mechanics and the ability to handle a 500+ horsepowered car around a race track, the fact that I am a female means that I don't get the same respect as the men. I even had one guy interrupt a conversation as if I didn't exist and then proceeded to say goodbye to the person I was speaking to and ignored me completely. And this was at the same function at which I won a trophy for my driving!!! WTF??This has brought me to wonder if I should "man up" by removing my make up, cutting my hair short, adopting a masculine stance and swearing with every second word. Would giving up my femininity make me more acceptable? No it wouldn't because the attitude is that a woman should be a woman and go and sit with the wives and girlfriends and make the lunches and discuss the kids and clothes and leave the guys to their cars. Yeah right? No. I know more about the car that I am driving and what I am doing than half the guys there. If given a chance I can hold my own with the best of them.We need feminists like Neptune to remind people that inequality and male dominated attitudes still exist and need to be changed. I am not a raging women's libber or "feminazi" by the way. I may be dominant in my profession but that doesn't transfer to all parts of my personal life. I may not be "girlie" but I am very feminine.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Coming from Gen Y, feminism nowadays has taken on a much more different context, as well as being paraded by a different age group. I’m sure that most of you heard about Canada’s SlutWalk, where a young girl who was provocatively dressed was sexually assaulted. When she made a report to the police, the policeman said that with the way she was dressed, she had been ‘asking for it’. This triggered a myriad of responses and uproar, leading to multiple demonstrations and protests (Sydney’s was just last year). Feminism is now being paraded around by girls in their late teens and early twenties who demand the right to dress and act as they please, no matter how provocatively, without the fear of being judged. A woman who sleeps around with what is deemed to be ‘too many’ people is labelled as a ‘slut’, while one who doesn’t initiate or content to sexual activity by the second date is dubbed a ‘frigid prude’. On the other hand, if a man sleeps with multiple women, he is called a ‘player’ or a ‘ladies’ man’, all quite complimentary comments. But is there a female equivalent for this? Mens’ lady, perhaps? Feminism is now being called upon in this context; to allow a woman to say and act as she pleases without the fear of judgment from not only men, but also our counterparts. Other women are in fact worse judges of each other’s behaviour than men are in many cases. Personally, I had enough trouble telling my closest girlfriends that I joined a tame dating site (Oasis) two years ago, let alone a site like RedHotPie. In terms of feminism in a career context, I believe that I have little to be concerned about in my job area. Law students in universities are now predominantly women, and women also now occupy most of the lower half of law firms and agencies around the country. While the upper tier of these firms, as well as the judges’ bench, still have men as the majority, these men will eventually retire. I was discussing this with a girlfriend over coffee last week (fellow law student, it explains our nerdy conversation topics), and we both believe that it’s inevitable that once those men retire in a decade or so, women will automatically take their place. Firms will then be required to have a human resources overhaul, implementing compulsory paid maternity leave and options to work from home, for the simple reason that their most qualified staff are women. I believe that in the area of law at least, feminism has made its mark. Anyhow, just my two cents worth J
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RHP User
13 years ago
I can so relate to your story...and completely understand where your at...I make a point of "hanging onto my feminity"at work ....wear perfume, some lippy, curl my hair every so often and wear pretty lingerie under my uniform......and still Im damned...because then I get accused of being girly and comments like "who are you meeting after work ?"....um hello ..doing it for me !!!...in some professions or as you said in some sports, you just cannot win !!!...aaarggghhh I too have been tempted to "man up" at times...but you know..by doing that "they"win..I .just keep plodding along and lead by example......wish I knew more about cars though :)
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RHP User
13 years ago
The irony of it is that one of the quickest people around the track last year was a female who broke several records. Fortunately for her, she sticks close to her particular group of very supportive people and so doesn't experience the same crap as us.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Whilst it's true that more than 50% of grads are women and that is reflected in the intakes it is unlikely to be axiomatic that the numbers at the top will follow. In my experience the reason for this is that women don't want partnership, particularly those who have chosen to have families. Success as a partner usually means needing a househusband and/or seeing very little of your children. In spite of many and varied attempts to get women in leadership roles, including flexible working arrangements and recruitment policies aimed at the promotion of women, most law firms and other professional services firms are still struggling to break the 25% female partnership barrier.
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RHP User
13 years ago
What you are saying though is that women are CHOOSING children over these high responsibility, high input, high outcome positions. I have to say, that with law especially, I have engaged lawyers on the basis of their expertise at every turn. Sometimes men, sometimes women. In the course of one particular litigation I've seen lady registrars, lady district court judges, lady Supreme court judges and a lady Court of appeal judge... that is all in the course of one litigation event. It's difficult to imagine that these women are "tokens" to the system.Perhaps any expectation that the professions should be 50/50 in terms of gender is inappropriate, particularly if the cream of female professionals can just as easily CHOOSE to be stay at home mums in preference to career advancement, as their less talented female counterparts. Professional skills only stay honed in the process of practicing.HugsStalkyQuoting 'PleasureKraft' Whilst it's true that more than 50% of grads are women and that is reflected in the intakes it is unlikely to be axiomatic that the numbers at the top will follow. In my experience the reason for this is that women don't want partnership, particularly those who have chosen to have families. Success as a partner usually means needing a househusband and/or seeing very little of your children. In spite of many and varied attempts to get women in leadership roles, including flexible working arrangements and recruitment policies aimed at the promotion of women, most law firms and other professional services firms are still struggling to break the 25% female partnership barrier.
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RHP User
13 years ago
I did not say the statistics were because of workplace inequality. I was merely responding to a comment where someone thought that there may be a significant change in the proportion of women partners in law firms and I absolutely agree an expectation of 50/50 is unrealistic given gender norms. I also said earlier that I personally I have never been affected by sexism or inequality. That doesn't, however, mean that there aren't very real issues to be addressed some of which have not yet been touched on in this thread - disproportionate violence against women, female circumcision, forced marriage, forced prostitution, unequal pay, selective abortion of female foetuses, unequal access to education, disenfranchisement through various means and so on. These are hardly issues that only hard core feminazis (or whatever condescending term it was that you used) or even only women, ought to campaign to change.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Many of the matters you raised are illegal here Pleasurecraft. It's not as if women have that battle against crime all to themselves. Also your statement about disproportionate violence is misguided. I've heard figures for example that ~90% of violent crimes are perpetrated by men BUT 80% of their victims are other men. Or are you talking about the blight of women somewhere else? We have our own battles right here in Australia to deal with. Let's sort those out first huh? Hugs Stalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
The Op raised the specter of religion.... And coined the phrase feminazi... Not me. Hugs Stalky
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RHP User
13 years ago
I was aware that he'd raised the subject of religion but you were tearing shreds off it and I feared the thread might go in that direction. Couldn't have that, mate. Talk of religion always brings out the nut jobs.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Women rule !!!
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RHP User
13 years ago
Ugh, real life gets in the way for a bit and then all of a sudden you're a couple of whiskies in, parked in front of a keyboard, crapping out a not-so-mini-rant. I'm sure this made sense sentence by sentence, but may not be entirely coherent. Thanks everyone for your comments, it's an interesting discussion I'm sure you'll agree, regardless of your position.jensman and Stalky, my interests in feminism began in my halcyon days back at uni when I studied it formally (though it wasn't my main discipline) and I was involved with a few feminist campaigns back then. 'Real world' be damned, they don't come much more dyed-in-the-wool, true believer feminist types than you'll find in university collectives. There were a few that I butted heads with frequently and who resented my being there (yep, there was a clique that argued men shouldn't be allowed in the gang), but the vast majority were happy to have me on board. I DID attend rallies Stalks, but rather than snide remarks, let's just say, ummm, in some cases feminism definitely brought men and women closer together. Not a lot of man hating going on there. But, great place to pick up aside, as I said I have a formal interest in feminist writing. Authors like Naomi Wolf, Ariel Levy and bell hooks, are pretty insightful (and a bit more accessible - they don't write in too much gobbledigook (Cisoux and Butler - ugh!). Hell, even loopy Germaine Greer is someone I have time for, because I find her so provocative and confronting! Q&A will be very interesting this coming Monday (she’s a guest!) But hey, we can't all spend out time reading naff polemics and making daisy chains and burning our bras. Yet in the real world, of course I've seen it. Not so very long ago I worked in an electronics store. Men worked in just about every section. Women, the few that were there, mainly sold household appliances – kitchen and cleaning, or worked in the office. It was that transparent. Now we all know that women watch TVs and DVDs and play video games and all that stuff, but the culture said hey, this is how it’s done. It’s not formalised or codified. It doesn’t need to be. This is why I say it’s systemic, rather than overt sexism. It’s not just the company being dicks (pun intended). You could blame it on the customers. I always loved referring computer inquiries to one of the awesome (and underrepresented) girls that worked there in one of the 'boy' areas. “Speak to Sarah, she’s the absolute authority on PCs.” You could see the scepticism, and you occasionally see people go out of their way to ask a guy a question over a female salesperson. This is the sort of shit I’m talking about when I say feminism’s not done yet. There are thousands of examples. A friend of mine works in TV production, and is constantly finding herself butting up against that glass ceiling. The film and television industries are grossly gender biased, and it's not for lack of trying, and it MOST DEFINITELY is not because women aren't interested, or because they're unqualified/unsuitable for the positions. Most of the work in that industry is on short-term contracts, so it’s not this whole ‘career/family’ balance (which I’ll return to). SLK and Misstress T, two ladies I’d imagine don’t take crap from anybody, give two salient examples. mooka, I just don’t buy into that whole reverse sexism stuff. The fact is that the cards are still well and truly stacked against women. They have to work so much harder to earn the same advantages as men. I find it entirely naïve, and in fact quite problematic, to say “just accept that the world is full of double standards... some favour women, some favour men”, because while that’s true (we are different after all), they’re not equivalent double standards. Nowhere have I said we will ever reach ‘fair’ and ‘equal’ - I'm realistic about it all. But change is occurring, it’s improved in many observable ways over the years. That doesn't mean we can't still do a whole lot better. jensman, power to you brother, I really respect that you were the one to stay home and raise your child. The shift from ‘maternity leave’ to ‘parental leave’ is actually a really important, and shamefully recent invention. It recognises that either parent should have the opportunity to stay home and raise children, and that child-rearing is a worthwhile role in our society. Importantly, it challenges the idea that men go out and earn the income and women stay home and make the babies, which is what underpins the ‘I won’t hire you because you might get pregnant’ schtick. As a society it took recognition of inequality, political momentum, and finally legislation to make it happen. Social standards haven't quite caught up, and probably never will, but now at least the infrastructure is there, and attitudes are slowly changing. We don’t automatically assume it will be the mother who stays at home, even though it will be in the majority of cases for a while yet. sydneyboi, I disagree with you about politics. There really are very few, if any legitimate reasons why politics should be a ‘male profession’, which is what you imply. You say something like nursing is discriminating for men under that logic, since it’s heavily female-biased. True, kinda. As a man you would cop a bit of shit for being a nurse, which sucks. But here’s the big difference. Jobs that are overwhelmingly skewed towards women are the low-paying jobs: nursing, teaching, care-giving. They’re jobs with relatively few prospects for career advancement. It’s the point MS made. Can you think of ANY predominantly female professions that are high paying? I can’t off the top of my head. Maybe you can think of a couple, but if so reverse the exercise and try that. It’s not a coincidence, it’s a big part of the wage gap, and it’s why the recent increase in wages in some of those areas was very important. Now some may argue that it’s partly biological. Sure, maybe women ARE more nurturing and might have a small advantage in those support-type positions. But how much does that biological difference actually account for the way society is structured? How much does it account for how well someone performs their job? I guarantee you it’s nowhere near the significance attributed to it, and instead it’s more a matter of ‘social norms’, which mostly work to maintain the status quo, which just so happens to keep men in positions of power. PS. When I said “Feminazi” I was critiquing it. Also, I didn’t mean to raise religion, I was just using it as a logical analogy, which seems to have been missed. Yes Westboro Baptist Church are Christian, but it would be grossly wrong to equate all Christians with their extremist views. I meant it as a basic equivalency. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.PPS. A new site has been launched http://athousandreasons.com/ - it is a response to an excercise that Linda Grant undertook on International Women's Day, in which women tweeted in examples of discrimination from their lives, whether from long ago, not-so-long ago, or today. It's called a thousand reasons, as in "a thousand reasons why feminism was an is relevant". Many of the stories I read there remind me of some of the comments I've read here, so you might be interested checking that out.
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RHP User
13 years ago
But was it as devisive as you'd hoped?
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RHP User
13 years ago
Well said.
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'jensman1903' But was it as devisive as you'd hoped? Haha, actually it's been really good. It kind of confirmed my thoughts about how the feminism 'brand' is pretty warped in public perception, which was part of my motivation for starting this. I think we've had some good contributions all around, and this is an important discussion to have. There was part of me that was kind of hoping for some fireworks, but I for the most part I'm glad it's been constructive. I mean really, pretty much everyone agrees on the need for 'equality', whatever that means. I don't think I've quite whipped everyone up into the fervour where we have a bonfire with the new 'girls' Lego, but that's ok, we'll get there! Thanks MistressT!
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RHP User
13 years ago
Quoting 'neptune_drift jensman and Stalky, my interests in feminism began in my halcyon days back at uni when I studied it formally LMFAO YOU CAN GRADUATE WITH A BACHELORS OF FEMINISM THESE DAYS? Oh ffs why does that not surprise me.(though it wasn't my main discipline) and I was involved with a few feminist campaigns back then. 'Real world' be damned, they don't come much more dyed-in-the-wool, true believer feminist types than you'll find in university collectives. There were a few that I butted heads with frequently and who resented my being there (yep, there was a clique that argued men shouldn't be allowed in the gang), but the vast majority were happy to have me on board. This is precisely what I was getting at. I didnt study feminism at University.. I grew up with its ongoing evolution. There has always been very vocal denigration of male participation from some quarters.... to the point where many of us figure "why bother" or rather "why suffer fools" but I can only assume that your supporters ... that is, those who supported you being there were not so vocal... I bet you had to stick up for yourself.... left to argue your own case.. left out to dry.... feeling excluded.... Of course, anyone who does feminist studies these should appreciate that intrinsically the feminist movement needs the support of men to succeed. Sisters can't do it for themselves. "We're all in this together." But, great place to pick up aside, I'm certain that comment would be well received at a feminist rally.Thanks for your thoughts.HugsStalky
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RHP User
9 years ago
This was worth a bump xxFreya
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