F64
Responsibility and Accountability
March 25 2013
Comments
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Mr_MrsAraps
12 years ago
but I would be pretty sure sites like these will have already have their legal advice and policies sorted. I am going to play devils advocate here crackup (and nice to see you posting again). If there was a person who had previous convictions for assault on women then the law is not going to take his mobile phone or email away on the chance that he might verbally abuse a woman over the phone or email. Internet and this site is just another form of communication as is in RL. Innocence until proven guilty is still a cornerstone of the law even if the person has no previous convictions or committed 50 million crimes (separate argument). If there is suspicion of a crime about to be committed then it has to be compelling evidence for the police to act. Also how do you differentiate between someone who has gone to prison and served his time and is committed to now living a law abiding existing to someone released from jail after x years but who has no remorse and will do the same thing in a heartbeat once released.
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RHP User
12 years ago
If a person has been dealt with by the law and penalties are handed down and served, they really are expected to have learnt their lesson and not commit those offenses again. (If only this were true) The companies cannot be expected to prejudice a person due to their criminal record as they have already done the time as it were and these companies can't begin to ask for police clearance certificates to join. However, if there is evidence of any wrongdoings by people on these websites then their postings or emails can be useful in prosecution for things like a breach of an AVO which can carry serious consequences such as up to 2 years prison, a criminal record which will come up on any police clearance certificate requests for prospective employers to see and they will eventually be caught out and arrested, they will eventually make a mistake like leaving fingerprints or be caught on film. So websites like these can lead to disastrous relationships but on the other hand if a person is making someone's life a misery then they can also be a useful investigation tool for gathering evidence against those who need locking up.
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RHP User
12 years ago
I don't think Sites like this are allowed to Discriminate based on a person's previous behaviour . I'm not sure what Laws & Legalities govern these sites but I imagine there could be all sorts of problems arising out of playing Judge on people . It's better for these sites to remain impartial , as much as they can. We all know that we're not allowed to post Defamatory comments on the Forums . Imagine if all of our private conversations on RHP were made public. Some of us may not look like Angels ! Whether we like it or not , the Law allegedly operates on the Principle of a person being Innocent until proven Guilty . GG♒- Posted from rhpmobile
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playfulminx
12 years ago
are no different to real life. If I was convicted of stealing from some men I picked up at a bar and was dealt the appropriate punishment, I think it's unlikely that the bar I frequented would ban me from entering again. However, if one of the men I stole from chose to go to the bar and proceed to tell the patrons that I stole his casserole dish, while it's true, it would be considered harassment. If that man's brother's cousin came in to the same bar and told the patrons that I stole his dishwasher then that would be harassment and defamation all rolled into one with a huge chunk of hearsay thrown in, which of course you should never rely on in the first place.Now if I was an absolute pest and kept trawling that bar to find new men to steal kitchen goods from, then I guess the bar's owner might want to move me along but where do you draw the line? I might genuinely just want a drink one night. You'd hope that the men are bright enough to not leave me alone in a kitchen when they invite me back to their place :)If a matter is serious enough to warrant attention then it should be made known through formal processes, not via a public Forum where the truth can't be verified and all you're doing is leaving your arse hanging there waiting to be slapped with defamation.
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RHP User
12 years ago
There is risk in meeting strangers, here or in a bar or at your local park. the guy serving you a beer could have a criminal history but most sexual offenses are done by family members or people you know. the net is a hunting ground for all kinds of nut jobs, including women looking for a quick buck or a husband for their kids or what ever. Men are at risk as well as women this site is a commercial enterprise they are not our mother and some people will run to rhp nanny if you post at them with a little whip in your tongue, or complain about a person if they did ya wrong the law the courts and the prisons are for that. and like another said, keep your messages and posts if you think their is a threat to you in any way, if you feel there is then you need to think of your own well being and get of rhp as much as we all have a good time on this site sometimes, you have to weigh up the consequences good and bad
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'playfulminx'are no different to real life. If I was convicted of stealing from some men I picked up at a bar and was dealt the appropriate punishment, I think it's unlikely that the bar I frequented would ban me from entering again. However, if one of the men I stole from chose to go to the bar and proceed to tell the patrons that I stole his casserole dish, while it's true, it would be considered harassment. If that man's brother's cousin came in to the same bar and told the patrons that I stole his dishwasher then that would be harassment and defamation all rolled into one with a huge chunk of hearsay thrown in, which of course you should never rely on in the first place. Now if I was an absolute pest and kept trawling that bar to find new men to steal kitchen goods from, then I guess the bar's owner might want to move me along but where do you draw the line? I might genuinely just want a drink one night. You'd hope that the men are bright enough to not leave me alone in a kitchen when they invite me back to their place :) If a matter is serious enough to warrant attention then it should be made known through formal processes, not via a public Forum where the truth can't be verified and all you're doing is leaving your arse hanging there waiting to be slapped with defamation. That's true enough but defamation is a tricky one. It is heard in the Supreme Court and when you look at it properly there are so many things to address. For one thing it has to be proven that what has been said is untrue, secondly the slight has to really be done in a manner that will affect your life in a detrimental manner, generally speaking this is professionally or through financial hardship. I doubt the reason is that you may not get lucky on a sex site is a viable option for this legislation. Then you have the matter of the fact that on many websites like this often it is inference not direct names mentioned and even then they are it's often an answer to a quote or directed at the members fictitious name. So unless the member is named publicly there is little chance of a successful court proceeding. Just some thoughts on that one. It doesn't mean open slather but the court will look at the nature of the site and the real harm caused to the complainant. I mean how would it read? - Your worship Mr Johnny Big Knob said my client, Mss Enormous Clit was a terrible fuck and a nutter. We seek damages of $150,000 because she liked My Giant Purple headed Jizz Monster who now won't return her emails and have sex with her. it just would not get off the ground
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CrackUp
12 years ago
Thank You RHP for opening this up for discussion. I think the comments made thus far show the difficulty of trying to make a moral judgement in an area which is legal minefield. Ultimately, it would appear, it is up to the individual to use their commonsense in meeting up with people from such sites and in making a choice in how they conduct their personal life.
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RHP User
12 years ago
I'm pretty sure that last time I looked it was not against the law for a man who has previously been convicted of an assault crime on the opposite sex to seek out a new relationship after doing jail time? Whether it's online or out there in daily life? Just as there is no law against women going on a spree of relationships and collecting children, houses, cars and other assets. We all have to use our own discretion. Men and women alike. There are no guarantees that you won't meet a psycho or convicted criminal on here just as there are no guarantees that you will meet anyone at all?RHP and other online sites are just a vehicle. They are not a private investigation service or today tonight. Their policy doesn't allow the 'vigilante' KKK of dating' to run rampant with their tales of woe. It wouldn't portray the right image to the demographic they are trying to attract to the site.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Really though playfulminx has it in a nutshell. Any website in australia has an obligation to moderate all posts that are made on the website and they have a legal obligation to make sure that noone is defamed or vilified. If they don't it is a lawsuit waiting to happen so they need to be impartial and delete any post or thread that is calling out someone no matter what the circumstance and in some cases whether it is true or not. for example with this case that playfulminx gives what if this "kitchenware thief" never actually did any of those things and the person posting was motivated purely by malice? It is not up to the website to determine if it is true or not they just need to ensure that the post is deleted and in a timely manner. To be honest though who would actually go and post about someone if they were truly threatened or encountered violence at the hands of someone.. The first thing you would do is go to the police and try and handle it that way rather than spreading word about them.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'deepbluesumthing' I'm pretty sure that last time I looked it was not against the law for a man who has previously been convicted of an assault crime on the opposite sex to seek out a new relationship after doing jail time? Whether it's online or out there in daily life? Just as there is no law against women going on a spree of relationships and collecting children, houses, cars and other assets. We all have to use our own discretion. Men and women alike. There are no guarantees that you won't meet a psycho or convicted criminal on here just as there are no guarantees that you will meet anyone at all?RHP and other online sites are just a vehicle. They are not a private investigation service or today tonight. Their policy doesn't allow the 'vigilante' KKK of dating' to run rampant with their tales of woe. It wouldn't portray the right image to the demographic they are trying to attract to the site. As for this particular site (unlike the situation mentioned by OP on RSVP). Stated in the Terms Of Use for RHP under Eligibility, (quote) point 6: By using or viewing RHP you must represent and warrant that, You Have Never Been Convicted Of A Violent Or Sexually Related Criminal Offence (end quote).Which is kind of hard to police from the outset as I don't think this clause within the rules would really deter the previously convicted? (I would assume anyway?) Also given the amount of anonymity one can have while using the site as a member or guest and the fact that all you need is an email address. That's it. An email address is all the criteria you really need to pass yourself off as anyone you like.Unfortunately it would seem in a minority of cases.
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RHP User
12 years ago
RHP's take on this (without closing the thread down).
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'Driftwood1'Really though playfulminx has it in a nutshell. Any website in australia has an obligation to moderate all posts that are made on the website and they have a legal obligation to make sure that noone is defamed or vilified. If they don't it is a lawsuit waiting to happen so they need to be impartial and delete any post or thread that is calling out someone no matter what the circumstance and in some cases whether it is true or not. for example with this case that playfulminx gives what if this "kitchenware thief" never actually did any of those things and the person posting was motivated purely by malice? It is not up to the website to determine if it is true or not they just need to ensure that the post is deleted and in a timely manner. To be honest though who would actually go and post about someone if they were truly threatened or encountered violence at the hands of someone.. The first thing you would do is go to the police and try and handle it that way rather than spreading word about them. Apologies for delayed posting Driftwood1 as I addressed some of your points above, particularly where a lawsuit applies (see example and reasons for said lawsuit) and as far as the website is concerned they cover all bases below where they ask people not to defame or vilify others and reserve the right to delete any such posts. Always read the fine print!! That's what my mom used to say.
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'keepingkarma' RHP's take on this (without closing the thread down). Me too!
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RHP User
12 years ago
You cant sell someone who is drunk booze.. This is possibly a good thing for the rest of your patrons.But having offenders on a web site? The cost of researching and passing fair decisions in each case would be prohibitive to the site though... It's possibly The Laws job to restrict people from coming to places like The Bakery in the first place if they are a risk to others?
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RHP User
12 years ago
In reference to something in your last post (sorry can't do the quote & reply). With reference to the plaintiff in a defamatory statement. A person does not have to be expressly named and, innuendo is indeed an element of defamation (so I have been informed). Host websites can also be liable for publication. So maybe we should all endeavour to practice "safe speech". Just saying ... :-/ KK
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RHP User
12 years ago
I certainly agree with the "safe speech" aspect, I was just trying to point out that where is the real detriment to the person if the damage caused is that they are frightened they won't be able to hook up on a website like this? It could be cause but how does one disprove a persons thought on a sexual act? The second point was that if the material is substantially true then the act (sect 25 & 26) states a clear defense. True innuendo, your right, but it has to be something published which is untrue such as a wedding announcement for two people who are already married! That would be a spiteful publication causing harm to respective parties. The one thing that is so very true is everyone should be very careful if they are taking aim at an individual on any website in what they say. Good point KK, interesting topic
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RHP User
12 years ago
... and thanks :-) KK
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RHP User
12 years ago
And how do you suggest the RHP actually polices this? If I walk home after dark and get assaulted do I sue the council for allowing violent offenders to walk our streets? It all comes down to personal safety. We can meet violent offenders anywhere. Yes I have noticed that sites like this draw a higher than average percentage of people with mental health issues but I feel that the world has become over legislated anyway. If RHP was made responsible for violent offenders being in their site, it paves the way for litigation for pain and suffering for ANY failed relationship where both met online.- Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
12 years ago
As the forums are moderated, should the website allow one or more members to talk about another member? Most probably not. After all, I can say anything I want on here and cause damage to someone's good name. If you think there is something dodgy about a user, then report him/her to the site organiser. They have a report abuse button at the bottom of the website. Use it. I've done that before a few times on another website as a few profiles were clearly fakes. Did I publicly say so? No. I informed the site admin and they removed the profile (hopefully after an investigation). Still, they can easily create another account so it is not really a good solution.How does anyone know who is who on an online dating site anyway? People have commented that some couple profiles are just single people. Some people have multiple profiles and I am sure that some of them have profiles of both genders. It is not hard to hide your details on such websites so always be careful. Basic common sense prevails - do not give out information that can identify you in real life. What would you do if someone gave out your information publicly or to others without your permission? Defamation is not an easy thing. Sure, we can be charged for defamation but the courts will most probably say there was no (or limited) harm done to a person's good standing in the community or ability to earn a living. Even if found guilty, the penalty will be very small. Don't quote me on that as the laws are different in different states.Thanks for the warning playfulminx. I don't engrave my name into my casserole dishes so it will be hard to prove ownership. Looks like I have to lock down all my kitchen appliance if you ever come over. Then again, perhaps I'll leave them lying around to entice you to come over
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RHP User
12 years ago
But the onus is on the defendant (defamer) to prove it is.. So while substantial truth is a valid defense you would want to make sure you are being completely honest when using it as a defense. Especially if the plaintiff has plenty of evidence to prove malicious intent along with proof to disprove it. for an example if I said playfulminx is a thief and not to be trusted but I had really just been annoyed because I thought she had reported me and I had no actual proof that what I said was true and Also if playfulminx had texts to prove that I threatened to spread word about her and also proof that I was in fact the appliance thief- that would be defamation and a pretty clear cut case, I'd wanna have a damn good lawyer or make an apology and retraction quick smart. disclaimer: playfulminx is not to my knowledge an appliance thief, any persons named in this post are used as an example only.. :P great topic
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xFunlovingx
12 years ago
A while ago now I remember seeing a guy on an Adult Website who's name had to do with him just getting out of prison! His profile stated that he had just got out of jail and was just looking for girls to fuck hard! The profile scared me and I was shocked that this profile was allowed to get through! Even with warnings about age or criminal history, I am really surprised how many fall through the cracks! I suppose it is up to us as regular users to bring this to the attention of the moderators on any site and hope they will do the right thing! I know of underage people that have gone in to the chatrooms a few years ago now and when everyone complained to the mods the profile was shut immediately as they can see the conversation as long as you state the time of the conversation! I am sure they do their best to have the most respectful people on here...but with so many joining a day it would be hard to keep tabs on every profile! xFunlovingx
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'Handmaiden' And how do you suggest the RHP actually polices this? If I walk home after dark and get assaulted do I sue the council for allowing violent offenders to walk our streets? It all comes down to personal safety. We can meet violent offenders anywhere. Yes I have noticed that sites like this draw a higher than average percentage of people with mental health issues but I feel that the world has become over legislated anyway. If RHP was made responsible for violent offenders being in their site, it paves the way for litigation for pain and suffering for ANY failed relationship where both met online.- Posted from rhpmobile I think you said it perfectly!
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'Driftwood1' But the onus is on the defendant (defamer) to prove it is.. So while substantial truth is a valid defense you would want to make sure you are being completely honest when using it as a defense. Especially if the plaintiff has plenty of evidence to prove malicious intent along with proof to disprove it. for an example if I said playfulminx is a thief and not to be trusted but I had really just been annoyed because I thought she had reported me and I had no actual proof that what I said was true and Also if playfulminx had texts to prove that I threatened to spread word about her and also proof that I was in fact the appliance thief- that would be defamation and a pretty clear cut case, I'd wanna have a damn good lawyer or make an apology and retraction quick smart. disclaimer: playfulminx is not to my knowledge an appliance thief, any persons named in this post are used as an example only.. :P great topic To answer your first paragraph - yes the onus of proof in relation to the fact of the defense of truth is upon them. In other words Driftwood1, if the defendant, if ever such a REAL complaint was ever brought against any other poor unfortunate woman or man on this website then they would need too prove that they were completely honest. Having said that, the threat is not enough, a person needs to have his or her brief compiled in a professional manner for the court.Generally they do because eventually they get sick and tired of being harassed and have to go to the extent of taking out restraint orders, putting in cameras on their houses as they get harassed and catching people doing things like spray painting their car on film, very ugly indeed. (example of conduct)Having said that, hypothetically if a person was to demand someone to apologise publicly on a sex website for something allegedly said or else they would sue for defamation is a rather weak and pathetic excuse for what i would call a threat. If you were to extort any type of admission through threat then it is inadmissible in court. It is a way to avoid a defamation case to post an apology online if you have done the wrong thing and if you have been properly notified that you are being sued for defamation. If you have not been notified through the proper channels (see the Act and a REAL solicitor) that you are being sued for defamation then do not post anything until you have sought legal advice.Define malicious intent please Driftwood1....malicious -deliberate harmful gossipIntent - Aim or purposeIn relation to playfulminx (Drinfwoods1 example, not you Playfulminx!), you being annoyed is not a justification for a defamation action. The fact that you had no proof that what you said was true is an unfortunate circumstance? The best advice I can give you is to walk away.Good luck Driftwood1 with your apology, I hope you make it quick smart or at least move on and have a happy life with your new girlfriend (the farter in your face)The funny thing driftwood1 is that you only need to make an apology through a lawyer is when it is really, actually requested by a legitimate lawyer, be careful who's advice you take my friend.I am yours alwaysgood_vagabond...... the lurker but not gone my friend!!!!
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RHP User
12 years ago
I think you have your wires crossed friend.. It was a purely hypothetical example. Interesting comment about vandalising a car, I'm not sure what that has to do with me but it's terrible indeed if that did indeed happen to someone. I'd be interested to know when this allegedly happened? I think you're getting a little mixed up in my hypothetical scenario. I was just saying that if playfulminx had proof that I had made threats to start spreading rumours around about her it'd be telling indeed. As its all hypothetical I am not sure your advice is warranted but thanks.
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playfulminx
12 years ago
But no, I don't steal kitchen goods lolRealistically, if someone posted a statement in forums that I did in fact steal something from them and identified me only by username or other vague inferences to a relatively limited audience, I don't see myself winning any sort of defamation case. If my full name and other details were mentioned then I'd probably have a better case but as someone else said, it depends on how much damage was caused to me by people knowing I stole a blender. Furthermore, if the statement made was true and essentially not defamatory by definition, it's still a violation of privacy so another can of worms :|But really, what is police or anyone else supposed to do? If they know a guy who is charged with a violent crime uses the internet are they obliged to tell the operator of all websites he uses (Gumtree, Facebook, eBay) that he should be banned on the off chance he'll come into physical contact with another human being? I don't think a website can take concrete action without some sort of official report either. I mean, I'd hate for my profile to be cancelled just because Driftwood or Vagbond decided to report me for theft. If the police reported me because they deemed me a threat to the community then I'd understand but is that even likely?
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RHP User
12 years ago
the play within the play within the play funny :)
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'lil_bit_angelic' the play within the play within the play funny :) while i can certainly see the humorous side, i think what i find funny about it isn't quite what everyone else finds funny. In fact, while the debate has been fun, its gone beyond a joke now. If i was entangled in this hypothetical scenario the first thing i would do as playfulminx would be to discuss it with the police. The 2nd thing i would be doing if i was her would be to take a day off work and put in an application for an MRO. I am sure that playfulminx would have a pretty easy case as ALL the physical evidence would point towards her being a victim of malicious innuendo and lies :)
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RHP User
12 years ago
Quoting 'lil_bit_angelic' the play within the play within the play funny :)After all it is all hypothetical ...rite ?
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RHP User
12 years ago
Well summed up, and pretty spot on, I think :)
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RHP User
12 years ago
Ok I have a bit more to add to this hypothetical and it will be the last thing i say about this topic.what if someone was messaging people telling them that you had vandalised their car. You know and they know that it isn't the truth but they said it anyway. What if you had absolute proof that you were at work all that saturday, picked your children up that night from their mums house. Had them overnight and the whole next day and arrived home at 6pm and had proof that you were at home all that evening and spent later that night with another person.All this is just another lie added to the list of the lies that this person says almost every day. Now obviously this is a hypothetical question but i would love to hear your thoughts on the matter. Do you let the matter go or take the matter to the magistrates court. Suppose the police had already been notified and they suggested taking out a restraining order against this person to prevent them being able to tell these lies to another person. What would you do?
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RHP User
12 years ago
You should take it to the magistrates court . Take it all the way with your proof and witnesses. You may want to check on the requirements of the basis of how a MRO is granted. MRO cannot be granted based on the assumption of a lie, one has to have proof of continual harassment jeopardising your health, safety and well being and of course bearing in mind the defendant has rite of reply and can counter sue should your claim not be successful. Best you read the requirements of which a MRO is granted. A AVO in the state of WA is not applicable in your hypothetical. Your solicitor will be able to advise you with the best course of action, if you situation is not for instance, hypothetical
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RHP User
12 years ago
Its too late on Friday afternoon for me.... appears my brain is fried...too many hypotheticals
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RHP User
12 years ago
Take out an AVO because someone (allegedly) tells lies about you? I'm a total numpty when it comes to such legal matters. I feel like I'm on an episode of Ally McBeal ...
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