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Unspeakable things: Sex, Lies and Revolution by Laurie Penny

September 08 2015

This lady has some very valid things to say about gender equality in western culture. Well worth Excerpt from Laurie Penny's book as referenced above, from "The Lost Boys" chapter: The great obstacle to women’s progress is not men’s hate, but their fear. The “Men’s Rights Activists” who organize to drown out and silence women on the internet are usually fearful, lonely creatures who are desperate to speak about gender, but only able to do so as a way of shutting women down. That expression of fear comes from a profoundly childish place, a posture which is fascistic in its policing of gender roles as a playground, bully, and which uses words like “Feminazi” with apparently seriousness. Because fighting for equality was what the Nazis were really known for.It is as if by talking about the hurt women experience, often because we are women, we are somehow preventing men from speaking about the painful pressures of masculinity. Interestingly, for many men, the only time they do feel able to talk about their own suffering is when they are trying to stop women talking about theirs. In every other context, men and boys are discouraged from talking about their pain. Thinking in a new way about sex, gender and power – call it feminism or ‘masculism’ or whatever the hell you like as long as you do it – can help men to process that pain. But it’s far easier just to blame women.As more and more women and girls and their growing number of male allies start speaking out against sexism and injustice, a curious thing is happening; some people are complaining that speaking about prejudice is itself prejudice.Interestingly, before we talk about misogyny, women are asked to modify our language so that we don’t hurt men’s feelings. Don’t say, “men oppress women” – that’s sexism, just as bad as any sexism women have had to handle, and possibly worse. Instead, say ‘some men oppress women’. Whatever you do, don’t generalize. That’s something men do. Not all men, of course, just some men.This type of semantic squabbling is a very effective way of getting women to shut up. After all, most of us grew up learning that being a good girl was all about putting other people’s feelings ahead of our own. We aren’t supposed to say what we think if there is a chance it might upset somebody else, or worse, make them angry. I see this used as a silencing technique across the social justice movements with which I am associated; black people are asked to consider the feelings of white people before they speak about their own experience: gay and transsexual people are asked not to be too angry because it makes straight people feel uncomfortable. And so we start to stifle our speech with apologies, caveats and soothing sounds. We reassure our friends and loved ones that of course, you’re not one of those dudes. You’re not one of those racists, or those homophobes, or those men who hate women.What we don’t say is: of course not all men hate women. But culture hates women, and men who grow up in a sexist culture have a tendency to do and say sexist things, often without meaning to. We aren’t judging you for who you are, but that doesn’t mean we are not asking you to change your behaviour. What you feel about women in your heart is of less immediate importance than how you treat them on a daily basis. You can be the gentlest, sweetest man in the world and still benefit from sexism, still hesitate to speak up when you see women hurt and discriminated against. That’s how oppression works. Thousands of otherwise decent people are persuaded to go along with an unfair system because changing it seems like too much bother. The appropriate response when somebody demands a change in that unfair system is to listen, rather than turn away or yell, as a child might, that its not your fault. Of course it isn’t your fault. I’m sure you’re lovely. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility to do something about it.Society tends to discourage us from thinking structurally. Pondering upsetting things like poverty, racism and sexism as parts of a larger architecture of violence does not come easy in a culture that prefers we all see ourselves as free acting individuals. But the body politic is riddled with bigotry like an infection: you can’t see it or touch it until it breaks out on the skin. But its there, under the surface bursting and suppurating in individual wounds that suggest something else is going on under the surface. Your friend is raped by another friend at a party; your colleague has to leave work because she can’t afford full time childcare; your daughter comes home sobbing that she feels fat and refuses to eat dinner. It’s simpler and less scary to imagine of these things as individual, unrelated experiences, rather than part of a structure of sexism that infects everyone. Even you.Dull gender stereotypes about multi-tasking aside, its relatively easy to hold more than one idea in the human brain at a time. It’s a large, complex organ, the brain, about the size and weight of a cauliflower, and it has room for many seasons worth of trashy TV plotlines and the phone number of the ex lover you really shouldn’t be calling after six shots of vodka. If it couldn’t handle big structural ideas at the same time as smaller personal ones we would never have made it down from the trees and built things like cities and cineplexes. It should not, therefore, be as difficult as it is to explain to the average human male that while you, individual man, going about your daily business, eating crisps and playing Bioshock 2, may not hate and hurt women, men as a group – men as a structure – certainly do. I do not believe that the majority of men are too stupid to understand this distinction, and if they are, we really need to step up our efforts to stop them running almost every global government.Somehow, it is still hard to talk to men about sexism without meeting a wall of defensiveness that shades into outright hostility, even violence. Anger is an entirely appropriate response to learning that you’re implicated in a system that oppresses women but the solution isn’t to direct that anger back at women. The solution isn’t to shut down debate by accusing us of “reverse sexism”, as if that will somehow balance out the problem and stop you feeling so uncomfortable.Sexism should be uncomfortable. It is painful and enraging to be on the receiving end of misogynist attacks, and it is also painful to watch them happen and to know you are implicated, even though you never chose to be. You’re supposed to react when you’re told is actively fucking over other human beings, in the same way that you are supposed to react when a doctor hammers your knee to test your nerves. If it doesn’t hurt, something is horribly wrong.Saying that “all men are implicated in a culture of sexism” – all men not just some men – may sound like an accusation. In fact, it’s a challenge. You, individual man, with your individual dreams and desires, did not ask to be born into a world where being a boy gave you social and sexual advantages over girls. You don’t want to live in a world where women get raped and then told they provoked it in a court of law, where women’s work is poorly paid or unpaid, where we are called sluts and whores for demanding simple sexual equality. You did not choose any of this. What you do get to choose, right now, is what happens next.You can choose, as a man, to help create a fairer world for women, and for men, too. You can choose to challenge misogyny and sexual violence wherever you see them. You can choose to take risks and spend energy supporting women, promoting women, treating the women in your life as true equals. You can choose to stand up and say no, and every day more men and boys are making that choice. The question is – will you be one of them? For anyone who found this interesting enough to read this far, comments?

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RHP User

9 years ago

In light of the fact that women are often castigated by other women for complaining about men..man bashing...xxFreya

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RHP User

9 years ago

I believe whatever the cause, whatever the passion, we can all choose to be the change we want to see - irrespective of gender, circumstance or environment.

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Tall74nHard9

9 years ago

I just woke up after falling asleep somewhere through that - will have to try again later. Tall

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Single_Guy4U

9 years ago

So I can sit down and read it next time I get a day off work. Personally though (although I did not read the whole thing) I have never thought of being better or worse than woman, and never cared if a woman was better than me at something or earnt more or less. (I can still be competitive though but equally so with a man or woman) I believe they are just different, and all people (men and woman) have different strengths & weaknesses, thoughts & ideas (for example, I am good at drinking beer, and I'm looking for someone good at taking bottles to the bin, and opening the fridge )..................................Just kidding

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RHP User

9 years ago

With regards to these forums, this rings so true: Interestingly, before we talk about misogyny, women are asked to modify our language so that we don’t hurt men’s feelings. Don’t say, “men oppress women” – that’s sexism, just as bad as any sexism women have had to handle, and possibly worse. Instead, say ‘some men oppress women’. Whatever you do, don’t generalize. That’s something men do. Not all men, of course, just some men. Some may remember that I even made up a lengthy disclaimer, in response to the inevitable hammering that would follow (from both men and women) if you dared to make a statement about men that failed to explicitly acknowledge that you were not referring to every man in the world. IMO the tendency for some women to be very pedantic about this, is a reflection of another point in that article...that women have always and still are expected to be 'nice'...to not make too many waves, not be too aggressive, to try and keep the peace and to not offend anyone. I think it's so ingrained that we often don't even notice it, until some guy gets all offended because a woman forgot to include the word ''some'' in her sentence and we then fall over ourselves to clarify that of course we didn't mean him and please don't think we identify at all with any of those aggressive 'feminist' bitches...we're all for equality but, you know, you have to go about it in a certain way that doesn't ruffle too many feathers 'ya know? It all shits me to bloody tears.

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RHP User

9 years ago

Wow! Never thought of it that way... even after reading the article in the OP. You raise a very good point, and now that you've mentioned it, it shits me to tears too.

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RHP User

9 years ago

"Insights into Sexism: Male Status and Performance Moderates Female Directed Hostility and Amicable Behavior. " by Kasumovic & Kuznekoff, 2015.

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RHP User

9 years ago

"women are overly emotional and can't read maps""black people steal and belong in prison""muslims want to behead westerners""aboriginals are drunks""gays spread AIDS" Factual or racist/sexist/homophobic/etc comments? Which one it falls under is whether the general term is intended to mean the entire group or not - we know that each of these statements can be either. It is a fact that there are some overly emotional women who can't read maps, that there are some black people who have stolen and belonged in prison, video evidence has shown some muslims who beheaded westerners, there are some aboriginals who have alcohol addictions, and some gay people that have passed HIV from one to another. But if the statement was intended to apply to ALL of each set referenced, the statements would be incorrect. Yet you would generally be castigated for making those statements without adding "some" to indicate that it isn't a reference to the entire group. That is where I think the complaints of "not all men" come from. There are quite prominent authors/commenters who have previously complained about people using general terms to refer to specific sub-group, but then freely use "men" without any indicator that they're referring to a subset of that group. In recent times this was taking issue with people saying "muslims" and not "extremist muslims" or something similar - yet then writing articles stating "men perpetrate domestic violence against women". It is a hypocritical use of language. I find a lot of the writing style employed by the popular "feminist"* media really annoying. For example, though I have been a long time reader of Daily Life on SMH, Clem Ford's style usually annoys me incredibly and focuses less on solid points than snarky hyperbole. * I dislike the "feminist media" label, but I suppose it is a handy label. Was the woman not being able to include childcare included as a reference to sexism because the woman left work to care for the child not the father, or for another reason? "The woman cares for the child" would be a sexist POV, but without that info it's an economic decision not necessarily one caused by structural sexism. I think her point about "feminazis" is interesting, because it relies on a fairly static meaning of terms in that case - yet so much of modern feminism and discussion of structural sexism and violence relies on a change in meaning from the traditional usage - even "minority" required a redefinition. Language is dynamic... except when it suits the author. Something I find interesting is feminist 'communities' not recognising something I'd call domain specific minorities and the majorities own application of silencing techniques to groups that are minorities within that framework/community.

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RHP User

9 years ago

Basically she is saying lets take the gloves off get a bigger wedge between the sexes a bigger hammer and really drive it home. And if men have the temerity to defend themselves their guilty as charged.Yep I fucken hate this shit. There are men AND women, the issues are the result of both sides.Women need to look at what is their part because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction it's a male female feedback loop. You are as much a part of this culture as we are. Sounds like the only "acceptable" opinion a man can have is to agree or be branded fearful, lonely and desperate. It's divisive and negative.The biggest disincentive for men to speak are women, weak, softcock, mummy boys. Like the manflu thing. meh.

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RHP User

9 years ago

Women and children are attacked and killed almost on a daily basis in this country...and perhaps if we hadn't be good quiet submissive girls more of us would still be alive...we need to speak up and speak out..if men are offended by this tough.

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RHP User

9 years ago

Now who's being defensive ? Totally missed my point. Never said you shouldn't speak out you should. Just look at both sides of the equation.

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RHP User

9 years ago

And Freya, not by me. 😔

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madotara69

9 years ago

Of all, my longest and best friend is a woman, speaks volumes. I've spent more time defending Tara, her likes and related to sexuality as for equilibrium, with women who are prepared to walk all over other women's consent, in order of a feminist, maybe pseudo feminist rant claiming sexism. Makes me wonder if it's not just a guise for man hating, which makes feminism and unspeakable things, like Sex Lies and Revolution by Laurie Penny and the way she has written, some valid things in western culture sure, but she treats me like an idiot, in third person and has tickets on herself, a bigot. And I read it three times to try see it different. Respectfully Mado Mado Tara xx

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RHP User

9 years ago

Anger at inequality is a good start for social reform. After issues are identified, moving quickly onto something constructive and inclusive is going to be more productive in the long term. - Posted from rhpmobile

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RHP User

9 years ago

I posted this not to be divisive, but with the intention of raising awareness of the problem, which I believe is the first step to constructive social reform. I know that whichever side of this fence you were born on, was not your choice. You didn't choose your gender, it chose you. The point isn't that men are bad, and women are victims, it's that we have a situation here that's broken and making us ALL miserable. Lets join our collective genius and figure out a better way to live together. Only once a critical mass of people become aware of the problem and feel strongly enough about it to change the way they behave, can we see a social revolution begin. Lets take a less combative approach, and take a more understanding and open-minded stance to our differences. In other words, be a lover, not a fighter.Thanks again for all your great opinions on this. Happy to stimulate an adult discussion, even here, "on a sex site".

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RHP User

9 years ago

No movement is going to be without its divisions and completely unified in thought and action, but rather a collection of diverse people coming from all different angles on the same topic. Here is an article I stumbled across that might be worth a read on Daily Life called "Laurie Penny: Feminism needs to talk more about male struggles". Laurie Penny was presenting a talk about her book "Lost Boys" at the Sydney Festival of Dangerous Ideas. Might be worth googling if anyone is inclined. - Posted from rhpmobile

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RHP User

9 years ago

Just re-read the OP 😄 - Posted from rhpmobile

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RHP User

9 years ago

Seriously good topic however I don't think the moderators would have the stomach for it. The refugee topic has just gone AWOL and whilst that had little to do with adult dating and this topic has a bit more relevance the mods are a bit sensitive at the mo, so I'm going to leave it as I know my views might create some consternation. I think I'll just stick to "likes" so no one feels threatened or uncomfortable. 😇

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RHP User

9 years ago

and even thought I don't consider myself a feminist but I cannot stop thinking "Why does this shampoo have to be advertised by a woman making faces of having an orgasm" "How would bus stops look if there were more men in undies on posters than women?" Why is OK to sell a product that is not gender specific with a female model but not a male one? I can only name 1 frozen meal manufacturer - and that is only because they ran 2 TV Ads featuring men only - no housewife...just a bunch of men...and those men got my FULL ATTENTION everytime the ad was running - would not miss watching them! Looked up the video and saved it as a fav on youtube - might even buy the product one day...Had it been an other "busy professional woman" in that ad I would not have paid any attention....gender and gender stereotypes is an interesting topic

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Unspeakable things: Sex, Lies and Revolution by Laurie Penny

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