M46
My letter......
April 28 2015
Comments
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RHP User
10 years ago
I totally agree with you. You do the crime - you pay the price no matter what nationality or country you are in. There are far more important things in the world going on at the moment ie the Earthquake in Nepal. Pusscat xxx PS I haven't spoken to one person who felt that these two people should of be saved.
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RHP User
10 years ago
My heart goes out to their families and I think of how my mother would feel but these guys were not unknowing mules they were traffickers and knew what they would be in for if caught. I tend to think of all the deaths through overdose they may have contributed to here. And like Stir has said, countries have their laws which should be adhered to. Couldn't agree more about more tragic things in the world that we should be more concerned about. How many live were lost in Nepal and our media concentrate on Australian victims, again so sorry for the families that have to deal with the heartbreak but those poor souls that lost all family, their town and houses. Too much sadness.
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RHP User
10 years ago
you'll be amazed how think they should have been spared. I'm more annoyed with Abbot and Julie Bishop condoning countries that carry the death penalty. But they'll kiss Obama's arse who runs a country that has 32 states with the death penalty - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
I don't care what the laws of a country are,murder is murder.,and I hope none of the self righteous biggots in this country are faced with the same situation the families of these two young men faced. Why not inform yourselves about the real reason they were executed... And for Gods sake don't go to a country with Sharia law and fuck someone's else's spouse,you will be flogged..
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RHP User
10 years ago
I do not condone the death penalty as I feel most wouldn't but it is about laws whether they be wrong or right to us. I learned a lesson on that when I went on my only overseas trip to Russia. I did not validate my visit as I should have and was taken in by the airport police, most exciting and strangely amusing, though my Russian friend was scared out of her wits. Luckily she was with me though as she interpreted for me but I copped a 750 dollar fine but accepted it as this was their law.
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kimarianne
10 years ago
I have a feeling this could get nasty
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RHP User
10 years ago
I had posted simular to you (so it may double up....no pun intended) My thoughts....very sorry for the families of all involved and glad we don't have the death sentence here. However as you say respect the cultures and laws of countries you go to. They knew the risks involved and forged ahead with a crime that would have affected the lives of thousands of Australians and their families, probably also the deaths of many too. The right decision was made in my opinion and why should Australia focus on penalising a country for enforcing its laws. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
As I think Simon said in the Anything thread, we turn a wealthy and comfortable blind eye to our offshore concentration camps and then are outraged that they shoot drug dealers.8000 grams of Heroin is a lot of misery. Had they not been caught they would be enjoying the profits while others suffer.I don't condone state sanctioned murder but our national hypocrisy is breathtaking.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Freya79' I don't care what the laws of a country are,murder is murder.,and I hope none of the self righteous biggots in this country are faced with the same situation the families of these two young men faced. Why not inform yourselves about the real reason they were executed... And for Gods sake don't go to a country with Sharia law and fuck someone's else's spouse,you will be flogged.. they were executed because they committed a crime that attracts the death penalty in the country they were found guilty of the charge and appeal processes were unscussessful. One can argue that the method-way the sentence was carried out was morally questionable and theatrical but it does not mean that an independent nation can and shall condemn the laws of an other independent nation -which is what is happening here. And yes - do not go to a country with Sharia Law and fuck some else's spouse - do not do that. Or if you do then accept the consequences . There are consequences in life - you commit a crime - you pay for it as per the applicable laws. I do not like going to Singapore because eating chewing gum on the streets of Singapore attracts a fine - or when I do have to go I make an effort not to buy chewing gum for a week - I understand what the law is and act accordingly. I travel to UAE and do not take any toys with me and even double check my kindle to ensure there is no content which can be questionable by the authorities - cos that is their law - no one bits an eyelid if I have my toy in my bag in Australia but in the UAE it is forbidden - that is their choice and as a visitor I must respect that. In this case the applicable law was the death penalty. One can argue whether having death penalty in your justice system is good or bad but that is only an opinion - the fact is that the death penalty is still in place in many countries across the world - including several states of the USA! yet hardly anyone is jumping up and down about that - why - cos there is much much less media coverage...
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RHP User
10 years ago
I agree sir_stir, we have no right to try to force our beliefs on another country for any crime. I have been involved with families of young people that are dead from drugs.... The ringleaders are murderers, they are a curse and need to be dealt with. And just to add - I am an advocate for capital punishment, bring it back for certain crimes - just my view - Posted from rhpmobile
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
I have/had no sympathy for these two at all. They organised a shipment of 8.3 kilograms of heroin. An average hit of heroin is less than a gram, so that's a mountain of overdoses and deaths, not to mention the property crime caused by addicts trying to get some cash for it. They were in it for commercial gain at the expense of others, pure and simple. And it's not as though they didn't know the penalty - it's broadcast everywhere over there. If I knew another country had the death penalty for wearing jeans, and I turned up there wearing jeans, then I'd spend 10 years pretending to be an artist/pastor as well before I was justifiably taken out and shot. Because it's their country, their rules, like it or not. Btw, novice crooks don't just go overseas and collect that much smack. They would have had to pay for it in the first place, and have substantial criminal connections to organise it. Which they never divulged. They weren't mules. The only sadness I feel is that my taxes are paying for the return of their bodies. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
This thread is an eye opener.my opinion of many of you including the OP ,is that I just would not want to know you and it's unfortunate that I have already met some of you and radically changed my opinion of your characters..this is the worst experience for me on this site in three years...I am unbearably sad at the lack of compassion and hope OP that you got what you wanted..as cynical me knows how you delight in your eponymous posts.
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RHP User
10 years ago
I also genuinely wonder does Tony Abbott really care that much either or is he just saying what he feels he has to? Its not murder it is their law and we have to respect that. The Singapore and chewing gum was a great example of a law we don't have here but we have to respect and adhere to their. Maybe a better argument is all 9 should have received the same. - Posted from rhpmobile
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
Australia is, generally, a very nice place in which to live. We can afford to have things like compassion and empathy - which I have for most people in most circumstances. Much of the rest of the world is not that nice. I've seen and found more people dead from heroin overdoses than I care to think about, and in varying states of decomposition as well. I've also seen first hand the destruction it causes to those people's families, relatives, team mates, work colleagues and people that knew them. There is no other word for it but horrific, and it still happens today, far below the comfortable lifestyle and outlook most of us have. The majority don't see it. So for me to have compassion for these two, who were in the process of delivering 8.3 kg of heroin, which would then be diluted with rat poison, battery acid or ammonia - to increase the profit margin - so they can break into people's houses and steal cars to pay for it and then inject themselves and die in children's playgrounds, parks, back alleys and their own residences - sorry, it's too long a bow to draw. The short story is that we're better off without them. And I can guarantee they won't do it again.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Freya79' This thread is an eye opener.my opinion of many of you including the OP ,is that I just would not want to know you and it's unfortunate that I have already met some of you and radically changed my opinion of your characters..this is the worst experience for me on this site in three years...I am unbearably sad at the lack of compassion and hope OP that you got what you wanted..as cynical me knows how you delight in your eponymous posts. I feel for the families of the 2 men who were executed as I would feel for ANYONE who faces the death penalty ANYWHERE in the world But it is not down to Australia to enforce a change in the law of an other independent nation - it is down to the people of Indonesia - not Australia - this has nothing to do with compassion :)
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RHP User
10 years ago
No longer commenting on this topic,I have said my piece and am probably going to take a break from here and leave you all to your self righteousness...like I said,ths thread is my worst experience here in three years..well done
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RHP User
10 years ago
No longer commenting on this topic,I have said my piece and am probably going to take a break from here and leave you all to your self righteousness...like I said,ths thread is my worst experience here in three years..well done
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RHP User
10 years ago
No longer commenting on this topic,I have said my piece and am probably going to take a break from here and leave you all to your self righteousness...like I said,ths thread is my worst experience here in three years..well done
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Mischeviouslad
10 years ago
We can have all the sympathy of a convent nun... and thats a good thing in a civilised society. However, there is a populist current of people seeking to give the Abbott government a free kick for not saving the lives of these people. And I think thats pretty poor form given the effort that had been expended trying to do just that...... and the risk is elevating the unfortunate lives of these two, to martyrdom above and beyond the crimes they were convicted of committing. Where the current emotion has lost me, is when citizens demand that our government dictate how another operates its sovereign laws....(EXCEPTION - if those laws endorse or encourage genocide or ethnic cleansing or racial vilification) Demanding Indonesia (or any other nation) spare the lives of people under their laws is an exercise in hypocrisy if we do not also allow other countries to dictate how we should apply laws on our own soil. And Id be pretty pissed off if any Australian government caved in to demands of a foreign nation on how we treat those convicted of crimes on our soil. Im not a fan of death penalties..... and an argument could be made for the rehabilitation of the two. BUT... death was the applicable law for the crimes they were convicted of, and was a penalty which was absolutely no secret to those who were caught. This makes arguments about politics, rather irrelevant. Noone forced those convicted, to commit their crimes. This was Indonesias law, and thats all there is to it. Sadly.... this event is overshadowing the anniversary of a REAL tragedy... the Port Arthur massacre.
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RHP User
10 years ago
It doesn't mean people don't care for the families affected or are self righteous. On the contrary many have seen first hand what heroin can do to a person, their victims and families. I met a lad whose only vein left to inject in was in his balls. The desperation for the next hit drives them to do irrational and unthinkable acts. He made his decision to inject it in the first place so my sympathy levels are low there too. However these people were driven purely by greed and no thought for their actions. No posters have meant to offend anyone and as usual we all differ in opinion. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
I too have had friends that have died from overdose but Twisted your last comment is just so wrong "The short story is that we're better off without them. And I can guarantee they won't do it again". I truly hope that was posted without any rational thought and you want to take it back. Sorry dude. The two threads going at the moment over this sad situation are really charged and I hope it doesn't divide an online community that I have come to respect and admire.
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RHP User
10 years ago
What on earth has this place come to when we can't express an opinion? Pusscat xxx
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RHP User
10 years ago
"I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but, you know, I can see why people think they deserve it." So goes the hypocritical sentiment echoing across Australia when conversation turns to Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran. Somehow it has become fashionable to believe that these two young men, aged 31 and 33, deserve their fate, with a dubious poll even apparently showing the majority of people support their impending murder. All grist to the mill for pundits who have come out to call for their deaths. When it happens, bullets will rip through their flesh, slashing their blood vessels and causing massive haemorrhages. If they are lucky, it will be quick, this process of bleeding to death. But perhaps the bullets will miss their vital organs and it will be slow, and painful. We kill animals this way, too, by letting them bleed out. But at least we give cows the reprieve of stunning them first. Yet for Chan and Sukumaran, some are willing to throw all morality and good sense on the bonfire of tabloid bloodlust, and replace it with half-thought arguments and self-satisfied justifications. They tend to go along three lines: Indonesia has a "right" to enforce its own laws. Well, yes, it does, but that doesn't mean we should support those laws. If a law is unjust, why would we agree with its enforcement, particularly when it involves the death penalty? When women are sentenced to be stoned to death overseas you don't hear people saying "well, she knew that was the law when she had sex, and that country has a right to enforce its laws". No, we say it's an immoral act - and we applaud people who fight against it. We are shocked by how much the punishment exceeds the "crime", and we are sickened by the brutality of a state that thinks it has the right to take a life, to torture. The vast public outpouring for Australian journalist Peter Greste, convicted for the laughable crime of "spreading false news", shows just how willing we are to reject another country's unjust laws. Secondly, they say "they were drug dealers, and drugs kill people, too". Well, I didn't realise we were reverting back to the days of eye-for-an-eye punishments - a concept first introduced in Babylonian times - but if we have, let's not be inconsistent about it. How about introducing the death penalty for drunk drivers, or tobacco industry executives? After all, in the latter case we have numerous people who knew, for decades, their product was deadly for one in two of the people who use it (making it even more deadly than heroin). Some companies profited for years while they hid evidence, lied to the public and influenced governments, and now are continuing their deadly behaviour in developing countries. Of course, it would be barbaric to see the chief executives of these companies taken to an island off the coast somewhere and shot. But for some reason we don't think the same thing about Chan and Sukumaran, who have been personally responsible for zero deaths. Finally, the third argument goes, "Chan and Sukumaran knew what they were getting into, so why should we care about them?" One former newspaper editor even argued it was wrong for people to be focusing on Chan and Sukumaran when there are so many innocents awaiting the death penalty everywhere. But it's not unusual for Australians - and our media - to care more about what's happening to other Australians abroad, no matter what the issue. But drug importers are easy targets to criticise in columns. They don't seem like us, these young Australian men, and what they did seems unimaginably stupid. It's easy to make harsh judgements about a decision we would never have made ourselves - even easier to take the moral high ground from a drug-dealer. (All the while conveniently ignoring the fact that there were other people who knew what they were doing, too, namely the Australian Federal Police who let them go to their deaths.) Perhaps all this is just a way of safely living out our most primitive revenge fantasies? After all, this way we get to keep our moral high ground about capital punishment, insisting that we are still not in favour of it. But we can't help it if those brutal Indonesians like giving out cruel punishments, so out of "respect" to their culture we'll support them. Well, how about instead we respect them by treating them as our moral equals, who are just as capable of rejecting the death penalty as us? We should never support the death penalty, which is not a deterrent and only serves to allow governments to enforce a most brutal, unjust, irrational "justice" - generally against those who have the least resources and ability to defend themselves. When Chan and Sukumaran die I will feel for them. I will think of their grieving families, of their brutal, bloody deaths and just the sickening waste of it all. And I hope those Australians safely on their moral high-ground will pause for just a moment, and think about just what it is they have been advocating for."
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RHP User
10 years ago
you do realise that Indonesia has displayed a galling form of it, in asking other countries to make exceptions for Indonesian citizens facing the death penalty? Also, as an Indonesian academic pointed out, it's quite well known that those with money never face the firing squad in Indonesia as they can buy their way out of it. The corruption in their system is rampant. So, the issue is not quite as simple as some would like to think.
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RHP User
10 years ago
And I have friends who sadly are no longer here because of drug misuse. They chose to take drugs, I had that choice when I was younger and decided not to, just like many more of my friends. There will always be dealers and users, a very sad fact. But these guys didnt deserve to die? There are people who rape and murder children who have a cushy life in jail. Yes, we should accept other countries laws, but when you see savages murdering and beheading innocent people because of their religious beliefs, I mean, where can you differentiate? I know how quickly your life can change completely. These guys were probably making a big buck and thought they were untouchable. But in jail, by all accounts, they had reformed and were helping other inmates in various ways. The one thing that I would not wish on my own son is that he starts misusing drugs, I ill just have to hope that he is sensible enough to make the right choices in his life. But when I heard about the executions this morning, I certainly didnt feel like there was anything to celebrate. Yes, Ill get slated now, but this is what what the forums are for, people having different opinions and writing them down.
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On_Safari
10 years ago
Thing is these people KNOWINGLY COMMITTED A CRIME IN A COUNTRY THEY KNEW CARRIED THE DEATH PENALTY FOR SUCH A CRIME. Were they so arrogant, misinformed, gullible to believe that the result would be any different due to nationality? I'm with Twisted, how many of you have seen or experienced firsthand the results of drug use on individuals, families, CHILDREN? How many millions of people die as a result of gaining access to these drugs? And you want to mourn over another countries right to exercise the laws of their nation against people mascarading as tourists who are, in essence; part of our own nation's battle against illicit drug use? Let me put this scenario to you.....your son/daughter is a user and as a result of this particular shipment (had they been successful) gets a fix cut down poorly and ends up dead, they have a newborn baby who for 4 days prior to the parents being noticed missing dies in it's cot. How, as the parent/grandparent; do you feel? What kind of "revenge" or "justice" would you hope for? That may be extreme BUT bad people happen to good people everyday, on this occassion the "stooges" didn't get away with it and trust me, if the previous scenario had happened those two prisoners wouldn't have given a flying rats arse about you or your family and you can bank on that.
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RHP User
10 years ago
In my twenty plus years of working with drug addicts I've seen the devastation drug addiction can cause. I've met my fair share of drug dealers (many of them addicts themselves), who did horrible things. Many of them, despite the crimes they committed, were not evil people. Some were in my view, and I have personally wished that at least one of them would just die. I have seen many times though that even bad people can change, and even redeem themselves. Sometimes change happened after a major wake-up call, other times it was a gradual process. We don't know how these two men got involved in their crimes or where their heads were at at the time. We also don't know what would have happened if these guys had not been caught. Would they have continued drug smuggling? Quite possibly, but no one will know for sure. And the argument that they may have caused the death of others doesn't hold up for me. They had to be killed, because potentially they may have killed others indirectly. Wtf? Even if they had been directly responsible for the death of others, with the Indonesian president giving the order to kill THEM, in my view he was saying he was the same as (in other words: No better than) the two prisoners. These two men may have been rotten excuses for human beings going in to gaol, we don't know. But even if they were, by most (if not all) accounts they were decent men by the time they died. I feel great sorrow for the fact they weren't able to continue to do good. God knows the world needs more good.
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
And it's certainly not bloodlust. It's a decision made by the courts of another country in accordance with the laws of that country. Stoning a woman in the Middle East, while reprehensible at any level, does not result in the deaths of Australians. Bringing over 8kg of heroin into this country for commercial profit will. TisonlyI, sorry dude but I stand by my earlier comments. Two less heroin traffickers in this country can only ever be a good thing. Meander, I love your work but differ with you here - these two admitted they'd made similar runs at least twice before, so I would submit they'd caused a bit more than zero deaths, and filled their wallets as a result.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Thas not stopped, is not stopping, and will not stop people from trafficking or taking drugs. That has been established over and over again. The issues around drugs are very complex and they require complex solutions to address. Simple, reactive, punitive measures might appeal to the masses, which of course is great for politicians looking for votes...but they do almost nothing in terms of the drug trade.
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
A bribe was offered to the judges by the criminals' families. It was knocked back. This really is simple. It is a different country with different laws. They have the death penalty for trafficking heroin through it. So if you roll the dice and do that, and if you're caught, then expect at some stage to be tied tied to a post in the middle of the night and shot. Unless you're planning to invade another country, obey the laws of that country while you're in it. Then you don't get shot. And I bet they were sorry - sorry they were caught, given their previous activity there.
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RHP User
10 years ago
No way are we condoning what they did and yes they should have known better re the laws of the land and potential outcomes......but what was the point of rehabilitating if they were ALWAYS going to be executed..... 10 years the Indonesian govt invested in a so called rehabilitating program for what????? What was the point???? If execution was always the agenda, then why wait 10 years for this day to happen......
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RHP User
10 years ago
Great yet touching post. Can swing either way on this one ?
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RHP User
10 years ago
Can't say I'm with you on that comment bloke but I respect your rights to your view. The lives each and everyone of us have led are all different and form the basis of our thoughts. Good on you for having the balls to voice your opinion.
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Single_Guy4U
10 years ago
However, I agree with the OP and Twisted_Mister. I do not agree with the death penalty but have to accept another countries laws and penalties. (unless you have enough money to buy the country or live there long enough, become a citizen, and get yourself elected, then maybe you can change the laws). If you don't like them, you don't have to go there. I also suspect too much may have been done, which maybe only strengthened their resolve and made it so they could not save face and change their mind. I believe the do gooder's may have made it worse.
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RHP User
10 years ago
In the SMH is one of the worst pieces of journalism I have read. You put it much bettet Meander. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Twisted_Mister' A bribe was offered to the judges by the criminals' families. It was knocked back. This really is simple. It is a different country with different laws. They have the death penalty for trafficking heroin through it. So if you roll the dice and do that, and if you're caught, then expect at some stage to be tied tied to a post in the middle of the night and shot. Unless you're planning to invade another country, obey the laws of that country while you're in it. Then you don't get shot. And I bet they were sorry - sorry they were caught, given their previous activity there. a bribe in this particular case would have been knocked back, given the massive publicity it attracted in both Australia and Indonesia. Widodo would have known exactly what public sentiment in Indonesia was like over the case, and what the reaction would have been if clemency had been granted in any manner by any means. That's why it wasn't granted, and why such a big show was made of the lead-up to the executions. It was basically meant to be a big middle finger to Australia, and those childish actions alone - which caused even more grief for the men's families - should attract some consequences for Indonesia. As with most things, whether it's simple or not is determined by how you choose to view the situation. You can view it superficially, or you can choose to look a bit deeper.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Freya79' This thread is an eye opener.my opinion of many of you including the OP ,is that I just would not want to know you and it's unfortunate that I have already met some of you and radically changed my opinion of your characters..this is the worst experience for me on this site in three years...I am unbearably sad at the lack of compassion and hope OP that you got what you wanted..as cynical me knows how you delight in your eponymous posts. Freya, I also believe that if you go to a country and knowingly commit a crime that attracts the death penalty..... well you did it knowing the risks. So I definitely see both sides. However, these men were totally rehabilitated and had spent 10 years in jail. Not sure why the Indonesia govt would refuse to send them back to Australia even if it was to serve out a life sentence. What would have been the harm in that? I am also disturbed to hear that the Indonesia govt confirmed the execution on Anzac Day even when the Aust govt requested that they don't do this, and sounds as if the families have been treated with a lot of cruelty and much disrespect. Is this true or just media hype? I don't know but I am concerned about the disrespect the Indonesian govt has shown to Australians to be honest. Again this is based on very limited knowledge fed to me by our media.
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RHP User
10 years ago
because I don't believe the Bali 9 were the only ones involved in the crime. Did the local organisers receive the same penalty? I find it difficult to believe that only foreigners are guilty of the drug problem in Indonesia. There is so much corruption there. If their government was serious about the drug problem then they would be making in roads into the cartels operating there and making an example of them. So much more to this story than was ever published. The executions also make a mockery of the rehabilitation process that they are apparently so proud of! That is all I have to say on the matter. LG
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RHP User
10 years ago
Much has been said about these two ring leaders, BUT why have some of our so-called journalists in this country never asked for an opinion from any of the other seven members. If my memory serves me correctly these two were the 'enforcers' just in case anyone got cold feet. Could it be their response would not be in step with the story these journo's are trying to pedal.......Just a thought
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inspirit
10 years ago
barbaric and have no respect for other cultures. Corruption is rife over there and always will be. Power trippers abound through out Indonesia. These lads should of been exchanged and allowed to serve out their sentence here. IMO. Personally I think the Australian Politicians (All parties in unity for once) could of done more in the sense of bargaining.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Something I was going to ask. Freya may know this but I fear that she isn't reading this any more. How many locals are given the death penalty? What about all the under age prostitution and those human and child traffickers? What about all the Bali bombings? Have those people been put on death row??
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madotara69
10 years ago
Two sets of wheels in motion over there... Two faced fuckers make a fortune out of the drug trade, the death penalty is one of them, much less profitable so not many get killed by it, and 'Video Killed the Radio Star' Mado Mado Tara xx
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RHP User
10 years ago
You sound like you have been listening to the media and taking on board 'their idea' that they speak for ' all of us ' and that we are of one mind. I for one do not agree with what the media is feeding us. Is It another media beat up That's got you all worked up?!?! Many Australians believe that Indonesia has a right to pass judgement as they see fit. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
Problem is that they don't apply it equitably. For instances why did that Bali mastermind bomber go free? The penalty for murder and terrorism is death in Indonesia ... so what happened there?
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RHP User
10 years ago
Humanity has no borders Executing people is not a solid education policy The Berlin wall didn't fall down on its own its okay to empathise, its doesn't mean you think they are innocent Personally they would have served as a better deterent rotting in jail Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however spewing vicous emotive words of hate just makes your heart blacker and ulgier - not aimed at anyone here - Posted from rhpmobile
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
The outrage. Corruption or not, which is debatable (and I'm no apologist for Indonesia by any means), consider this scenario: Two Indonesian nationals try and smuggle 8.3 kilograms of heroin from Hong Kong to Brisbane. They are caught by Customs at Brisbane, arrested, brought to trial and subsequently sentenced to 10 years's jail in Australia. Our government is then subject to 10 years' worth of pleading, then demands by the Indonesian Government that they would be treated the same way as they would in their home country - that is, that the police shoot them. We then let them go at the conclusion of their sentence to the outrage of the Indos. How many of us would put up with that? I'll keep saying it - their country, their rules. The criminals (and let's not forget that's what they are) rolled the dice and lost. Does anyone really think that either would have voluntarily taken up art or pastor hood if they hadn't been caught, and that 'rehabilitation' was one of their slim claims to commute a death sentence to life imprisonment? In their position I'd be tap dancing that tune all day long too. Let's also not forget there were people from Africa and South America executed at the same time as well.
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RHP User
10 years ago
..the way the Indonesians went about the whole thing. They caught charged then jailed them , then over the next 10 years rehabilitated then finally executed them. It was the way the family's were forced to endure those last few weeks which was so inhumane. This was one of the cruelest things I ever had the displeasure of witnessing. If the death penalty is the way the Indonesians chose to deal with drug runners ' that's their right and we shouldn't try to interfere But we don't have to agree with the way they go about it. You wouldn't treat a dog like that ... If the legal eagles wer'nt so corrupt the executions would have been carried out years ago.. For the record , I don't do drugs and never have... I loathe the grubs who supply it to our kids without shame for their own self gain.. The scum of the earth...
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RHP User
10 years ago
I have worked with the misery cause by the use of drugs. The for me, this is the issue at the heart of this. I have seen parents cry and grieve for the children who have die a slow death because of the addictions their children have. Under OUR laws they would have got a couple of years (tops) and then released.... rehabilitated or not. I don't personally like the death penalty as a sentence, but it is the rule of the land where the CRIME was committed. Yes there were appeals, so the 10 years in an Indonesian jail was certainly a harsh punishment in its-self. The claims the guys were now nice guys and have changed may well be true, however they were sentenced to death.... not to 10 years prison. The point made by others that if they weren't caught they would have profited greatly and probably done it again..... the pain and suffering that would have caused many other families is immense. Nothing self righteous in any of this. Their death is not murder, it is a consequence that is determined equal to what their crime would cause to society (and individuals).... not under Australian Law, but under Indonesian Law. Just because we have one legal system, it is in no way perfect. Just because our law and consequences are ours, it doesn't make them right. Do I have faith in the Indonesian legal system - fuck no! At the end of the day.... these guys didn't go into it blindly. They knew the risks and rolled the dice...... it had a very sad ending........ not just for them, but for their family. From here.... mourn for sure, but don't tell another country how to do it's business..... we don't want them telling us we should have Sharia Law now, do we?
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RHP User
10 years ago
this took off quick eh?? 😊 - Posted from rhpmobile
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ocean_man
10 years ago
One should consider the consequences of ones actions before acting. There death is not the fault of a foreign governments "barbaric legal system", but the direct consequence of their own actions.
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inspirit
10 years ago
....who sent them on a death sentence. And we a laying blame where?
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RHP User
10 years ago
I don't think respecting another culture is a carte blanche thing, Sir Stir, and your line "don't we have an obligation to accept and respect that system as if it were another person that was on their own personal journey?? " perfectly illustrates why. I don't know about you, but if I strongly disagree with what someone does or the way they behave, I'll tell them. I'll try to convince them where I think they're wrong. Maybe they're actually right and I'm wrong, sure, but that's where it becomes a conversation. I'll never turn a blind eye to behaviour that I think is seriously out of line, and I don't consider that disrespectful to anyone. I also don't think I need to be perfect in my own behaviour to do that. I'm obviously not, and I would hope that people would pull me up on it. I think the death penalty is abhorrent, and should be challenged at every opportunity, and I'm glad that so many people have been roused by this. I don't consider it hypocrisy that people have got up in arms over this case without also tackling every other execution that's been happening in the world. That's just human nature. We engage on an emotional level primarily, and this case has penetrated the intellectual barrier to become an emotional issue. And let's face it, our government never tried to force Indonesia to commute their sentences. There were never any threats made. All that were engaged in was conversations and requests. This is basic fucking diplomacy. The world does this all the time. The idea that we should just accept what happens in other cultures is an extremely dangerous one that has allowed atrocities to occur openly throughout history.
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PatchworkGirl
10 years ago
I'm sad for their families. I'm sad that their lives were cut short, when they may very well have changed in the past 10 years. It's a long time. People can change. I'm sad for the lives of those impacted by the drug trade, who are grieving people they've lost. But I'm more sad for the family of the 51 year old woman not far from me, who died last night after a domestic violence incident. No-one outside her circle will remember her name. She won't be on the front page of the paper, with people filling social media feeds with hashtag campaigns to end the injustice that ended her life. She's the 34th woman this year to die from a domestic violence incident. And I'm so very sad for that. Issues like this are polarising, and there have been many times today I've seen people who I know and love post stuff that I don't agree with. It's sometimes changed my opinion of them. What hasn't changed, though, is my belief that human life it precious. That people can change. And that everyone deserves a second chance.
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madotara69
10 years ago
The whole war against drugs has failed, these are old laws, beginning with a man sentenced to 10 years imprisonment for possession of a joint in some country was a media highlight. Killing people never will make a dent on drug trafficking, too many people use drugs and until recently the largest organised crime business throughout the world, Internet fraud now the new war against crime has proceeded drug crimes. So these old laws have been exploited and the penalty death is a costly price aimed at those who can afford the cost of never facing the justice system. The focus is on drugs kill and these criminals are killers. The new idea being pushed is medical grade prescribed drugs as part of a management system to those addicted, with the aid of a professional medical practitioner. So that would put a dent in the underworld drug market, because the cost of drugs and what they are cut with is the real killer, a habit can cost a lot of money in today's market and crimes to suit being the major problem. Another time being a Jew was a crime punishable by the death sentence, it wasn't taken too well by other neighbouring countries. To respect the laws that sentenced those men to death, is to have an equal understanding of their means and we only hear the proper-gander based on a failed idea "if" it comes to international media attention, which it's preferred not in that country.
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
Not a personal go at you by any means, but the AFP knew only two of the nine involved in the process. They had no idea Sukamayaran (if that's his name, and I don't care either way) was involved, let alone being an enforcer for the group until it was too late and they'd been caught. As it turned out they initially got one of the 9, who then unloaded all the rest of them after the initial questioning. How they got it out of that first one is none of my business as it's not my country. Scott Rush's father tipped the AFP off because he thought his kid was acting alone. As it turns out he was part of a far broader operation which was uncovered by the Indo police. They did their job. Bad luck to the drug traffickers.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Call me sceptical but what did they have to rehabilate from they weren't addicts or mentally ill as far as I am aware, they were greedy. I am sure the good they did in prison and becoming religious was probably motivated by a desire to increase the chances of clemency. Self preservation rather than rehabilitation may be a better description. - Posted from rhpmobile
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
I'm not necessarily against drug use, dependent on circumstance and what people can or cannot do after they've ingested/injected them. There have to be some controls, similar to the current drink/drug driving laws we have. The problem I have is - who pays for the medicinal grade drugs and the facilities? Medicinal grade (ie, pure) heroin is ten times as expensive as the ratsak - laced stuff going around. Do the taxpayers pay for that industry? Morphine as opium poppies is already being trialled in Tasmania, Victoria and the NT. Most of it's shipped overseas as a paste and the companies make millions. Either the taxpayers pay for it, which would be unpalatable for many, or the users pay for it, which they wouldn't given they could get a cheaper hit from the bloke in the back alley which would also give the user the chance to get a Chiko Roll and some smokes from the nearest 7/11 for the same money. Don't get me wrong, I'm as far away from a wowser as you can get but I really don't think it's the answer.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Maybe you should educate yourself another of Chan's little importations, which was happening roughly around the same time. The one the media tend to avoid while promoting him as some born again saint. Let me refresh your memory, Hong Kong, Chan's teenage girlfriend and another minor, the plan to swallow condoms and fly back to Australia. The AFP whom you seem happy to vilify, notified the Hong Kong authorities of the plan and they raided the pair's hotel room in time to stop them taking a potentially fatal journey back here. That is the sort of scumbag we are taking about here. Someone willing to risk the life of his girlfriend and another minor for base financial gain.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'maturecpl52' Maybe you should educate yourself another of Chan's little importations, which was happening roughly around the same time. The one the media tend to avoid while promoting him as some born again saint. Let me refresh your memory, Hong Kong, Chan's teenage girlfriend and another minor, the plan to swallow condoms and fly back to Australia. The AFP whom you seem happy to vilify, notified the Hong Kong authorities of the plan and they raided the pair's hotel room in time to stop them taking a potentially fatal journey back here. That is the sort of scumbag we are taking about here. Someone willing to risk the life of his girlfriend and another minor for base financial gain. That post was aimed at Inspirit.......or should that be Insipid
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inspirit
10 years ago
I understand though we just do not know the real truth and never will. The whole thing is tragic in my view.
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inspirit
10 years ago
"Two Iranians found guilty of smuggling 40 kilograms of methamphetamine in Indonesia have had their death sentences commuted to life imprisonment." Now tell me they deserved what they got in a corrupt country! I do not think so. No FAIR justice there what so ever.
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RHP User
10 years ago
What causes people to start drugs in the first place? There are many societal nightmares that can push people into self destructive behaviour, domestic violence being only one example. The other end of the spectrum are the bored individuals looking for a recreational buzz or a thrill. Until the "causative" issues are tackled and resolved there will always be demand for drugs. Rehabilitated drug users are the best advocates in education against drug abuse. They have credibility. Compulsory drug (and alcohol) abuse education, starting at a very early age and continued throughout their school years could be a way of combating the increasing cultural acceptance of drugs. The death penalty will not stop drug traffickers OR drug users. Cut demand and the drug trade will die a natural death. Sadly, greed and corruption will not give up their profit margins easily. LG
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RHP User
10 years ago
is that there's no right or wrong answer.... And.... It gets people talking..... - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
It doesn't matter what they did. It doesn't matter who they did it to. It doesn't matter where they did it. State sanctioned murder is murder. I don't have any power to change the law in Indonesia or anywhere else, but I can sure as hell try and help them understand why it's wrong. There is a level of hypocrisy above that is breathtaking. The article from SMH Meander posted does actually highlight that quite well. My position is very clear and very consistent. The death penalty is always wrong no matter where it's applied and who it's applied to. That doesn't mean I think they should be spared punishment. It doesn't mean I think their crimes weren't serious. It certainly doesn't mean I like them. It just means I don't think any person has the right to take the life of another. It is a punishment from another age. We should be more enlightened by now. So for those that think this was ok, or even a good thing, I have a challenge for you. Just where do you draw the line? Is it drug dealers? Heroin only or should we include crystal meth? Maybe MDMA, people die from that occasionally too. 1kg or 2? Is it rapists? Or only if they murder as well? Or maybe just pedophiles? They really are the bottom of the barrel. How about murderers? What about manslaughter - they kill people too. What if you are so drunk you drive your car into a child care centre and kill a handful of toddlers - would that do it? What if you did the same because you were too old to know the difference between the accelerator and brake? Should we do it here, or only if they commit the crime overseas? What if they smuggle the drugs from Indonesia but make it home before getting caught? The intention and result is the same, they are just as evil, should we shoot them here or only if they are unlucky enough to get dobbed in at the other end? Now you've made up your mind - who the fuck do you think you are that you can decide who lives and dies! Nobody has that right. That is all.
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RHP User
10 years ago
was keeping them in jail for 10 years.IF the Indonesian Gov't was serious, the two should have been taken out at dawn and shot.But, there are other agendas in play here, INCLUDING with our own Government, and our own Law Enforcement parties..On the OTHER side of this shitty parlaver.....We are facing a crisis that our Government, our law enforcers, our Army, our Churches and our Civil leaders have Absolutey NO answer to!They have NO Plan B!They KNOW they cannot defete it!Nor can YOU.. NOT a single one of you!Nor can I!That is.... "The EVER growing Drug Problem"We, my dear readers, are on the threshhold of something akin to a "Zombie Appocalypse"Whereby.. the Virus is Meth!Call me a dickhead, or worse if you chose, BUT.. SOME of you remember the sixties...The ACID trips.. Dope, free love.. shit like that.. and the Law enforcers went tropical over that..They couldn't stop it then.. they couldn't stop the Angel Dust. PCP.They couldn't stop the Love drug Extasy..They couldn't stop Heroin, Speed, Coke.. Nothing..The drugs are getting worse, cheeper, more available, more potent, more aggressive...From this point on folks.. do NOT go out at night.. do NOT walk in the parks.. do NOT pull up at the lights with your car windows open.. Do NOT leave your home doors unlocked and unbarred..You are unarmed, unprotected and on your own - and your Police tell you to get better screens on your windows.. security cameras (For Fckn WHAT?) a bigger dog.. (BUT do NOT let it bite anyone - or you will be charged.. not them)You are, or will soon become prisoners!Prisoners in your HOMES.. with NO assistance.Sorry!
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RHP User
10 years ago
I had a rather black and white view of the death penalty during my youth, viewing it as swift justice for heinous crimes, and that the death penalty was an entirely justifiable punishment for the perpetrator, with my attitude being, - you got what was coming to you. My 40 something self, holds a rather different view, and I hope one where my opinions and dogma are not quite so dramatic, whilst life might possibly be black and white, there is also an awful lot of grey in between. In the cases of the two Bali 9 prisoners executed, almost all of us agree that the importation of almost 9 kilos of narcotics, is a serious criminal offence, by any countries measures, but is it serious enough for the perpetrator to warrant being executed by death?Is it the worst type of crime?Are not murder, or perhaps those who abuse children perhaps more justified in being given the death penalty? The reality is that a victim who is murdered, or abused has no choice in the matter. They don’t get a say, a choice or any option. In both these scenarios their lives are torn apart, and in the case of murder, it’s a rather final sentence. Over 92 Australians were killed in both the 2002 and 2005 attacks in Bali.According to a Newspaper article in 2014, all 36 criminals who perpetrated those attacks (who weren’t sentenced to life in prison) are now free. Can I assume that we all think those prison terms should be respected and agreed with just because those sentences were handed down in a foreign country? My own view here is that the Indonesian justice system is corrupt to the core, and frankly I cannot condone the death penalty for two Australians who committed a crime much less heinous than that of other persons who perpetrated an outrageous criminal attack on innocent people, who were simply going about their business and not hurting a soul.That says it all to me. We aren’t liked by Indonesia.They simply tolerate our presence because of the tourist dollar bandied about by Westerners, aid provided, and whatever other assistance is proffered to them by Western Governments.Frankly, why on earth any sane person would ever wish to visit a country that has such scant regard for human life is beyond me. The reality is that those who consume and use illicit drugs do so by choice, no-one (well to my knowledge) has ever held a gun to an innocent persons head, and told them to inject or pop pills, that if they don’t they’ll be threatened with death. We all go through life making choices, of what we will and won’t do with our lives. And, I guess when it comes to taking drugs, it comes down to your own ability to be your own person, not be a sheep and run with your peers just so you can be part of the crowd. Being able to say ‘No’ to your friends is difficult. When it comes to the deaths of these two men, the reality is that the system dispensing justice to these two men, is corrupt to the core. The Indonesian system does not hold to the Westminster system of law, and the sad reality is they quite possibly had to have the assistance of Indonesian officials to even attempt to pull of such a crime in the first place. As you’ve said ‘Twisted Mister’, this is the sort of crime perpetrated by high end organised criminals. Yet these spivs were trying to perpetrate such a high end criminal activity? As a civilised society, we don’t condone murder, or cruelty to another living creature, we believe that it should be punished. My question is, why do we continue to condone and justify the death penalty, when it is really just another form of murder, albeit one sanctioned by a government purporting it as a law. Just because something is a law, doesn’t mean it’s right or humane. I don’t believe that anyone on this forum believes it’s ok to stone a woman to death for committing adultery, or if a person who is homosexual is given the death sentence for their sexual orientation. I personally find it confronting to know that people loose limbs, arms, and feet as punishment for theft, and other crimes. The reality being that for most of those people their socioeconomic status leaves them, in most cases, with no choice but to steal the basics just so they can put food on the table for their family. And let’s be realistic, these punishments are still administered in countries even today.This is the 21st Century. Has the human race not evolved at all? And so, I’m assuming with the argument being bandied around by some on this forum that we should respect and accept these types of laws imposed by other countries, that we believe these types of barbaric punishments reminiscent of the Middle Ages are ok, and should be accepted? What we should be asking ourselves perhaps is, how does society combat drug trafficking? If I were to put this in perspective, drug trafficking is the operandi of serious and organised criminals. I did a university assignment a while back and drug trafficking is around a $90 Billion a year industry. The sad reality is our economies would collapse for a start, at such a loss of money through our monetary systems. One journal article I read stated that every single dollar bill in the USA is involved in a drug transaction at least three times in a year before that bill is finally used for a legitimate purpose. What came out of that assignment for me was that fighting drug trafficking is an almost useless and thankless task.However, that research also showed that one way of fighting systemic organised crime is through changes to our laws, our tax systems, and the creation of laws to target unexplained wealth and non-payment of taxes.As criminals do not adhere to the law, in most cases they also do not believe in paying their dues by way of taxes. Removing their access to funds and confiscating their assets, is the surest way to tackle the drug trade. And for those that know their history, America has used that stance very successfully, Al Capone’s downfall is an excellent example of those laws at work. They couldn’t get him on the drugs, but they got him on tax! I also think it needs to be acknowledged that many of those consuming illicit drugs, are in many cases people left behind by a broken Mental Health system, which has a stigma all of its own.Again, many of those consumers are using illicit drugs as a way of self-medicating their own serious mental health issues whether it be Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, Depression or any other number of mental health illnesses. Those reasons are varied, some are undiagnosed, some have gone off their legal medication for a variety of reasons, the most common being the awful side effects of those drugs. The sad reality is that unless you have a bucket load of cash behind you, are intelligent and have a family to back you up, it’s almost impossible for an average person to run the gauntlet of the mental health sector to find proper treatment. So, my own view of the death penalty is this.Imagine life before you were born, you did not exist. You felt no loss, pain. At birth none of us feel loss, disappointment or distress that we did not exist in the past, that existed prior to our birth. Death is the same. It is final, you cease to exist. Your pain in this world is at an end, finalised by death for eternity. The greater punishment is actually being allowed to live, but only half living in a prison. You exist, but you can’t really exist, because you live in a world that will not allow you to fully enjoy life whilst imprisoned by gaol. Each of us has a life on this earth. I consider mine to be about quality, not the quantity of that life.Life imprisoned in a cell, for 23 hours a day like a caged animal, with one hour of exercise or in the case of those imprisoned in gaols throughout countries like Indonesia with little comfort, and access to basic necessities such as clean water and reasonable food, is not my definition of a life of quality. I would rather be dead, ceasing to exist so that my torment is at an end. So, who actually receives justice in a death penalty situation? Is it the victim? Or does the perpetrator of a crime actually evade justice through death by simply ceasing to exist. These two men, along with all the other persons executed last night, they were someone’s Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter, Mother, Father, Uncle or Aunt.It could have been your child, “Stir, Stir,” or your child or “Twisted Mister.” My mantra in life has always been, “There but for the grace of God, go I.”Any one of us could have found ourselves in such an untenable situation such as this. We were all young once, and I remember me, as my 19 year old self. And, yes I too made mistakes and poor decisions. It certainly wasn’t to the same extent of these two men, by any stretch of the imagination. However, I think all of us need a reality check here. None of us is born perfect, and we all make mistakes. It is our nature, and unfortunately what makes us human. Personally, I think it’s rather ungracious to say, they got what they deserved. I only just finished listening to an interview of Malala Yousafzai, with Jennifer Byrne the other week. For one so young, she has wisdom beyond her years, and she perhaps can teach us all something about our own humanity, where she so eloquently says, “God, gave us life. No human being ever, ever, has the right to take that life away, no matter what the circumstances. Only God, has that right.” Whether you believe in God frankly, is neither here nor there. It’s the premise that human life is sacred, each life on this earth is unique, just as no two fingerprints are the same, each of us having something irreplaceable to give to this world. As Anne of Green Gables once said, “Each day is a new beginning, with no mistakes in it.”
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RHP User
10 years ago
Does not deter drug trafficking in Indonesia, their gaols are full of drug traffickers. Just as the death penalty in some USA states has not stopped horrendous murders. It just makes another person a 'legal murderer' when the death penalty is carried out. Not one person was saved from being a drug addict when the Bali Nine were caught. It stopped one shipment hitting the streets, so with the laws of supply and demand, there may have been a slight price hike. As long as people are addicted to drugs, there will be profession drug networks spreading this filth throughout the world. it is not even a matter of whether these men had rehabilitated or if they just happened to be the biggest arseholes on the planet. No human has the right to kill another human. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind- Ghandi - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
We all love holidaying in Asian countries, but don't be fooled, Indonesians like Thais are cruel and merciless when you you break the law. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
Your opinion,this is about a core belief,a value that you put on life..there s a line...on one side is respect for human life,on the other is the opposite view..Imo the uncivilised view....such a divisive thread OP but revealing.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'SimonDoes' Just where do you draw the line? Is it drug dealers? Heroin only or should we include crystal meth? Maybe MDMA, people die from that occasionally too. 1kg or 2? Is it rapists? Or only if they murder as well? Or maybe just pedophiles? They really are the bottom of the barrel. How about murderers? What about manslaughter - they kill people too. What if you are so drunk you drive your car into a child care centre and kill a handful of toddlers - would that do it? What if you did the same because you were too old to know the difference between the accelerator and brake? that good old alcohol is the biggest contributor to mortality and morbidity in this country. Not just through the direct health effects but through vehicle accidents, domestic violence, street violence, etc etc. So, perhaps those that sell alcohol should be put to death, after all they are in fact also profiting from a shitload of human misery.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting you: "One thing I love about topics like this... is that there's no right or wrong answer..." I must say your OP to me read less as "I'd love to hear diverse views" and more as "Who's with me?" I think you got just what you wanted, congratulations. My humble opinion, of course.
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RHP User
10 years ago
There are (perceieved) wrongs and injustices in every society and always will be. There are divisive debates like these on each one, at least the ones that attract a lot of popular (media) attention. Our ability to get along as a species depends on us being able to accept those of us that hold varying views to our own. There will never be a utopia where consensus of opinion exists on any topic, be it worldwide, national, local, or within one's own family. But no matter how much you think someone else is wrong on any topic, you have to continue having the discussion. The ability to have a debate is healthy for a society as it is for two individuals; societies/relationships that are unhealthy are those in which debate is stifled or not allowed. I maintain friendships with some who's opinion on certain issues I find abhorrent. But, over time, they are coming around. By shutting them out, their opinion will never change. But I will never shut them out regardless.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting Sir Stir Well this took off quick eh ☺ It took off quick because its an emotive subject which at the end of the day lets not forget involves the loss of peoples lives. Save your celebration for how many posts you get for another time eh. - Posted from rhpmobile
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
I reckon your posts are generally great, but - I don't get to decide who lives or dies. The government in this country does that, and for over 40 years they decided nobody dies. Some would call that enlightened, some not. In another country, not too far away, their government also decides who lives or dies. Because it's their country, not ours. The world is a smaller place than it used to be, but it is still comprised of billions of people living in different environments, under different cultures and differing beliefs. Many would consider Western values anything but enlightened. If a sovereign country passes a law - with the raging support of it's 200 million people, btw - that heroin traffickers should be shot, then that is their business. Not ours. I'll say it yet again. The crooks had done it before, they knew the potential consequences, they tried it again and were caught. They went through an exhaustive appeal process, which failed, and were shot. According to the laws of that country. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
The death penalty is a repugnant act and a violation of human rights. But then again so is incarcerating men, women and children who are seeking refuge from the violence or persecution occuring in their home country. How does anyone sleep at night? - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
There's a lot of weasel words in this thread trying very hard to seem reasonable and inclusive. But there's an undercurrent of vindictiveness and schadenfreude in them that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I hope I never feel comfortable turning a blind eye to someone's violent death.
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RHP User
10 years ago
It gives you 0.92kg each. So how do 2 of them end up with a death penalty, 6 of them life imprisonment, and 1 (female) 20yrs? Yes they did the crime, but "ring leaders" or not, they could have been given life too. Do you think that heroin got destroyed? This country released the Bali bombers within 10 years who killed and injured Australian tourists, and recently sentenced a girl and her boyfriend who killed her mum on holidays in Bali to 10yrs for her and 15 or 20 to the boyfriend. If we're going to play this "their country, their rules, their laws..." then let's get all Muslims to eat pork in Australia, and prevent Halal, remove hijabs, etc. Do you see the problem here? You can't take a life like that. Either keep them in their for life, or send them back to Australia (after all the AFP had their hands in this one). Especially 2 people who were reformed and helping inmates. #rantover - Posted from rhpmobile
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abcplus1
10 years ago
Disagree with the method, but not necessarily the punishment. If they had of got our kids hooked on their drugs Mr Abc would have gladly killed them with a blunt butter knife and dumped their bodies at sea. Mrs Abc would have helped tip them overboard. They went to make a big profit out of the misery and (probable) deaths of Australians, they knew the risk, they rolled the dice. To respect their culture and their laws, we must also accept it.
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RHP User
10 years ago
As Freya pointed out you can't sit on the fence with an issue like the death penalty, you either support it or you don't. Whether Governments sanction it is irrelevant as your belief has a higher priority rating. Those that say 'I don't believe in it but a Government has a right to do it' is fence sitting, have the balls to stand up for what you believe in. And for the morons that refuse to read and understand and just want to spew out hate, NO THIS DOESN'T MEAN ITS RIGHT TO TRADE IN DRUGS OR IGNORE THE LAW OF ANY COUNTRY. It just means we have an obligation as humans to be humane.
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RHP User
10 years ago
the media has gone mental for this but they seem to have forgotten the other side of the story. I feel for the family but it stops there. I have been to two funerals and watched mothers have to lay their children to rest becuase of a drug overdose, those 2 kids had major problems and were pounced upon by dealers.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Justified murder, is still murder. It is for no [wo]man to take the life of another. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Twisted_Mister' I reckon your posts are generally great, but - I don't get to decide who lives or dies. The government in this country does that, and for over 40 years they decided nobody dies. Some would call that enlightened, some not. In another country, not too far away, their government also decides who lives or dies. Because it's their country, not ours. Glad you understand you shouldn't get to decide who lives and dies. Now why should President Widodo? He's just a man like you. Yeah half the population voted for him, so what? He's still just a man like you and me. It should not be his decision. Yes it's another country, so what? They are indeed free to make their own laws, just as I am free to tell them it's wrong. I can't do anything about it, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. It just means there's a lot of people that need to have their minds changed. As Freya so succinctly points out, you either believe taking another life is wrong or you don't. I'm firmly in the "it's wrong" camp. Many here are firmly in the "it depends" camp, and it is always going to be tough to maintain a consistent line when "it depends". Someone has to decide. The Indonesians certainly aren't consistent, and in the case of Chan and Sukumaran it was two corrupt judges and a politician chasing popularity who made the arbitrary decision. Not "the Government", just three flawed men. The previous President had no intention of executing them (or anyone else it seems). The judges would have let them go for the right money. And that's what happens when you put ordinary men (and women) in a position to decide who lives and dies. Ordinary, flawed people like you and me, who should never have that right.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Josie8' When it comes to the deaths of these two men, the reality is that the system dispensing justice to these two men, is corrupt to the core. The Indonesian system does not hold to the Westminster system of law, and the sad reality is they quite possibly had to have the assistance of Indonesian officials to even attempt to pull of such a crime in the first place. It's quite likely that the 9kg of heroin seized from these men was sold right back into the market by Indonesian police.
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Tall74nHard9
10 years ago
Quoting 'Luck_Dragon' you do realise that Indonesia has displayed a galling form of it, in asking other countries to make exceptions for Indonesian citizens facing the death penalty? Also, as an Indonesian academic pointed out, it's quite well known that those with money never face the firing squad in Indonesia as they can buy their way out of it. The corruption in their system is rampant. So, the issue is not quite as simple as some would like to think. Everyone has made extremely valid points concerning the two guys, and it seemingly comes down to a matter of whether we personally support the penalty that came with the crime. As most have mentioned, the two of them were in the process of bringing in a large haul, not just a few grams of the stuff. The extended suffering and misery that could have resulted from the successful importation does not bear thinking about, as it goes well beyond just the users, as has been equally well pointed out. But LD has hit the nail hard in the head - the hypocrisy of the Indonesian system at large. It has been reported that the two would have been spared, with a substantial bribe being paid, and this is not the first time that has been mentioned in relation to similar cases previously. Secondly, what about the Indonesians similarly asking for "justice" for it's own citizens abroad who have also been found foul of overseas laws ? They have been known to pay foreign governments for the return of their citizens ! But what I find also equally 'galling' as LD has put it, is the entrapment that the Indonesians play in their own country. It has oft been recalled that locals easily sell drugs to foreigners, all in the sight of the local Police, but never get charged. The foreigners are quickly pounced on for buying the drugs, but the locals who sell it a are completely ignored. S'pose it's cash for the local economy, eh ? Tall
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RHP User
10 years ago
Remember this government has been negotiating heavily with Indonesia to "stop the boats" it may well be the favours bank is empty.
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
It is your absolute right to tell the vast majority of Indonesian people, who support the death penalty for trafficking heroin, that they are wrong. No problems at all. Just as it is their right to ignore you and maintain their closely held beliefs. I support the strong stance you've taken on this matter, even though I disagree with some of the points you make. We are a First World country and can afford to believe that we (humanity) is more evolved than before. I'd say that's debatable with some of the goings on in Africa and the Middle East about now. If 150 million Indonesians contacted me and said they thought my support for Collingwood (I know, I know) was morally repugnant and not enlightened enough, I would listen carefully to their concerns, thank them for their time and then go on my merry way, unconcerned about what busybodies in another country thought about my moral code. I've been to Indonesia twice. I've never been to jail there, and not once was I taken out and shot. Because I chose not to try and smuggle heroin through there. And because I was aware of the consequences. - Posted from rhpmobile
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Twisted_Mister' I've been to Indonesia twice. I've never been to jail there, and not once was I taken out and shot. Because I chose not to try and smuggle heroin through there. And because I was aware of the consequences. - Posted from rhpmobile Just because you choose not to break a law in a foreign country does not mean you will be protected by it either when you are there. The blatant corruption that exists is the contradicting factor when it comes to deciding who lives and who dies for committing the same crime. Money speaks over there. On a side note. Just recently it was in the news how an Australian girl was raped by a local. The police arrested him and them let him go due to no witnesses even though she identified him. She didn't break any laws. In fact she was there holidaying with her family. If her family were wealthy enough they could have paid the authority not to release the rapist. I've been to Bali several times too and have openly seen drugs being sold on the street to young tourists and have been offered them myself. The police were hiding around the corner either waiting to catch the drug buyer or get their kick back. Seriously, the only justice in Indonesia is the one you can afford to buy ... and if not suffer the consequences of their "law". LG
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RHP User
10 years ago
who wants to read a detailed account revealing just how big a role the AFP played in this - and how it makes the Australian government look even more hypocritical when they claim to be against the death penalty - google '''New Matilda Blood on their Hands''.
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inspirit
10 years ago
Quoting 'maturecpl52' Quoting 'maturecpl52' Maybe you should educate yourself another of Chan's little importations, which was happening roughly around the same time. The one the media tend to avoid while promoting him as some born again saint. Let me refresh your memory, Hong Kong, Chan's teenage girlfriend and another minor, the plan to swallow condoms and fly back to Australia. The AFP whom you seem happy to vilify, notified the Hong Kong authorities of the plan and they raided the pair's hotel room in time to stop them taking a potentially fatal journey back here. That is the sort of scumbag we are taking about here. Someone willing to risk the life of his girlfriend and another minor for base financial gain. That post was aimed at Inspirit.......or should that be Insipid
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RHP User
10 years ago
I totally agree with you. You do the crime - you pay the price no matter what nationality
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RHP User
10 years ago
I have never posted here before, and in this very sad story of executions at least am heartened by so many responses, even though I disagree with many. And even now that I am posting, I say something that is not original, but which I found on facebook, and which may already be here, buried in the many responses. The thought was: That we should have allowed these men to live, not because they have become decent, but because we are decent. The other sadness for me is that such events reinforce these artificial concepts of nationalism, and nationalism is by definition about exclusion - we affirm our nationality to feel good about ourselves by excluding others from the national club. And so my thoughts are also for the lives of the non-Australians who were taken, including that young man with mental disease, who even at the end did not understand that he was about to be executed. Apparently, in a bewildered voice, he said "This is not right" - and with that I agree.
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RHP User
10 years ago
that's my thought too. Why wait 10 years before the execution. Money perhaps? Isn't Indonesia a drug dealing Country? I have never been in Bali and will never go because I don't like tropical weather, but hey why be so hypocritical when the country is producing DRUGS? There will always be people which will use Drugs because it is forbidden, so make it legal because we are not having less users in the world we are having more, despite the education. The big winners are the people who organize the stuff and I really don't want to know how benefits from it......Governments, organized crime.....by the way which will always flourish too..... so open your eyes and see we will never win. I can choose t take drugs or I can use to no take drugs thats the same with smoking drinking and over use on medication. So when I want a free lifestyle then I have to take my own life into my hands and live with the consequences, what ever this means for me in my situation. So many people taking drugs.....why?????
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Smilingwithfun
10 years ago
The ten years was made up of time spent from when they where arrested, time leading up to the trial, the trial, then the appeals to various levels of courts.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Litonya' So many people taking drugs.....why????? of varied reasons, which is partly why trying to decrease / stop drug use is so complex and difficult. One big group are those with mental and physical illnesses who self-medicate, often because they are failed by inadequate and inequitable or in some cases almost non-existent health systems.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Again with the childishness and disrespect? Litonya, I once read a good article on why some people who try drugs become addicts and others don't. The people in first group are missing something in their lives and the drug takes it place. It may take the empty where comfort should be, or for example love, safety, warmth, peacefulness, fulfillment, etc. Like LD says, self-medication can play a big role too. People who already have those things I mentioned are much less likely to need any substances and as a result can much more often take 'em (no pun intended) or leave 'em.
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RHP User
10 years ago
The empty spot* And it's exactly for that reason that it's so hard to quit. Ask anyone here who gave up smoking for example. (And I don't even think many people smoke to deal with trauma, the reason most of my clients use substances.)
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RHP User
10 years ago
... was prolonging the inevitable. ... was prolonging the inevitable. These men were executed in accordance with the laws of the country they were in - that's a fact. By their own admission, they made a conscious decision, fully aware of the consequences should they be caught - again, that's a fact. Simply acknowledging these facts does not automatically equate to agreeing with and/or condoning the penalty by default, nor does it indicate a lack of empathy. Emotions aside, the events as they have unfolded have confronted people with questions of both moral and ethical conscience, they have encouraged people to make a stand against the death penalty, they have encouraged people to make voice their opinions with regards to rehabilitation, the ongoing drug war and brought to light some political agendas - all of which could quite possibly bring about a positive change in the long run.
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RHP User
10 years ago
Quoting 'Meander' Again with the childishness and disrespect? Childishness ? Where? Disrespect? maybe, but it was earned.
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inspirit
10 years ago
Go fuck yourself and best you do it with the said paper bag you have plenty off, in accordance to your profile. I have never read such a disrespectful and jaded profile before. Good luck in searching for like minded rock apes.
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Twisted_Mister
10 years ago
Change the Indonesian Government's policy on the death penalty, you have two choices to do so: 1. Convince our own government to invade and occupy them, and then introduce our own justice system. See how well that works in a mostly poverty-stricken country of 200 million spread over 100 islands or so. Not that our justice system is anywhere near perfect; or 2. Move to Indonesia, become a citizen, stand for their version of Parliament and then get more than 100 million people to vote for you. The reality is, nothing else will work so we're stuck with it. Empassioned pleas and creating hash tags will have no effect. Btw, if these two clowns had tried this on in Saudi Arabia they would have been publicly beheaded in a city square within the week. The world is not, generally, a nice place, while this country, generally, is. Wishing and hoping things will change in other places is not going to work, and neither will starving them of aid money, as it will only hurt the poor, not the decision makers and it will infuriate the largest Muslim country in the world sitting two hours' flight time from our doorstep. - Posted from rhpmobile
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